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Tlaib refuses to apologize for blaming Israel for Gaza hospital blast, attacks Biden
(abcnews.go.com)
this post was submitted on 19 Oct 2023
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I think the primary issue is that "destroying Hamas" and "killing a hell of a lot of Palestinians" currently has a large overlap and the Israeli mindset of large amounts of collateral damage/death being acceptable is not shared by most of the rest of the world, even though they're experiencing the same on a smaller mindset.
The pendulum swings the other way and there are absolutely bad faith actors out there (and on here) who have no problem with Israel continuing to take a barrage of rockets on a regular basis, because they either have no skin in the game or genuinely want Israel as an entity to collapse. They aren't helpful here either.
Historically speaking, land claim issues involved one side stomping out the other. But that's pretty much frowned upon today (not that has stopped Russia but, yeah, that's another topic). This is still the most likely outcome here and will ultimately favor the larger, better funded Israel - it doesn't make it right in any sense, though, but that's frankly just what is going to happen eventually. None of the countries complaining are interested in actually helping the people on the ground in Palestine, on either side, because they are more useful as a political tool if left in the wastes to perish as a symbol
I'd argue it has *very little" overlap in the minds of Israelis. I've heard three people in a very conservative small town in the US discuss the latter, which is absolutely three too many. The lion's share of Jews here—yes, Jews in a conservative town in the US—are very actively hoping for the best outcome possible for Palestinian civilians (even though we know they would never forgive Israel for destroying Hamas, even if it happened via magic bullet with no collateral damage).
Yes, a loud, dickish miniority of Israelis are calling for genocide, and yes, some of them will make it into the IDF, and do something horrible. That's terrifying. Yes, Netanyahu sucks, fuck Netanyahu—although he is not calling for genocide, although he's absolutely continued just about civilian-friendly policy the IDF ever had, he's moved farther and farther to the right of Israeli politics. But the IDF, as an organization, is really still doing its best to weed them out, to control them, and to protect civilians while it goes after Hamas.
This is why Israel is trying to evacuate civilians from Gaza City. But people call that ethnic cleansing... And meanwhile, Israel has evacuated its own civilians from the south and from the Lebanese border, but nobody said Hamas and Lebanon are engaged in ethnic cleansing. Why the fuck would you not evacuate people from a war zone?
Because Hamas likes to use people at human shields.
Israel warns Hamas what building it's going to strike, and when, and urges them to evacuate civilians from that building. And Hamas refuses. So Israel does its "roof knocking" if it thinks there's a chance there might still be civilians in a building that's firing rockets, trying to warn civilians again, and its critics say that "roof knocking" is somehow a war crime. They're trying their hardest not to kill civilians, and Hamas is trying its hardest to make them martyrs!
No other army warns its enemy of what building it's going to strike and when. That's not a thing armies do. They don't share intelligence, say "hey, I know you're firing your weapons from this exact building, please stop."
People have no idea… they should look at the vietnam war and see what indiscriminate bombing looks like…
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html
Sad to hear. However, we're talking about innocents dying and what can be done to protect them. I argued more innocents die in the long run if Hamas is not destroyed. To allow such an organization to exist just beyond your borders, is to allow innocents to die every year and that tally never stops increasing. If you need to kill the cancer in your body, you end up destroying good cells in the process, yet you do it anyways to save yourself from that cancer.
Which I keep telling people, so far Israel has shown more restraint than any other nation which would have leveled Gaza within the first few hundred rockets. Israel is going to spend even more of its blood preforming a ground invasion. Those are innocents dying too, surely. They didn't ask for this enemy or this war. I still support them, because there is no compromise that can be had with Hamas.
It's true that self-defense doesn't give Israel the right to indiscriminately destroy all Palestinians. But, outside of the online rhetoric, it seems they've been very clear about the target of their war and they repeatedly are taking steps to attack that target specifically. I just read an article from a Palestinian journalist returning to her home in defiance of Israel's warning to evacuate. These Palestinians quite literally are supporting Hamas, because they are willfully standing in front of Israel's aimed attacks. It's sad to see, but if I believe in Israel's right to self-defense, it means supporting them when they destroy those who defend Hamas.
Edit: correction, more bombs dropped in 1 year of the war
Israel has dropped more bombs in this latest "offensive" than in the US did in the entire war in Afghanistan.
More restraint my hole.
Also Israel has no right to preemptive self defence because this level of damage and the threat Israel faces would not meet the Caroline test.
Palestine has the right to resist occupation under the Geneva convention but I don't see any Zionists making sure that right isn't trampled on.
I believe the bomb count is not the entire Afghanistan, but any given year of the Afghanistan war iirc that being discussed on PBS News Hour last night.
Thanks, added the correction.
Np. It's still way too much. And at this rate, maybe it will exceed the entire Afghanistan war.
A figure you chose specifically because it sounds extreme. What matters is not the amount of bombs, as you well know, but the damage inflicted with those bombs. If you have to resort to extremities to make your point, do you really have a point worth making?
It is extreme.....
4,200 murdered, 1 million people displaced all in 10 days. (From a UN article dated the 17th, probably not the current total)
There's an esrimated 50,000 pregnant women now without proper healthcare, never mind the those with chronic physical or mental health issues.
The general population facing lack essentials like food and water.
Did no one tell you it's cringe to defend fascist states or does that boot taste nice?
And again, perhaps more than that die in the long run when terrorists are capitulated with. Your calls for a ceasefire are to be understood exactly as a call for Israel to return to suffering under hundreds of rockets per day and the threat of another invasion and raping of their people. You demand everyone stop fighting while not acknowledging that at least one of the parties has made the full commitment to destroy the other, no compromises. You ask for peace because it's easier to ask for peace than to fight for it.
You're putting words in my moyth, we both agree that a ceasefire is not a solution as the injustice will just continue.
We disagree on solution though, Israel is the occupier and will kill or displace 2 million Palestinians as soon as it can. We didn't let the Nazi state or fascist italy exist after the war. We now look back and consider Rhodesia and apartheid SA to be bad. The same applies to treatment of natives by most other colonising nations.
Israel is on the wrong side of history and like all fascist and colonising states it should be torn down.
If Israel wanted to kill 2 million people, they wouldn't tell them to evacuate south. They would just destroy Gaza. Get over yourself. Clearly Israel is at least trying to somewhat minimize damages, but you can't even admit to that. You have to paint them as genocidal maniacs, completely ignoring Hamas and what they've done. You're not going to convince anyone by lying.
I said kill OR displace 2 million, they don't need to kill to commit war crimes or ethnic cleansing.
Israel also bombed the supposedly safe route to the south, so there goes the whole benevolent state lie.
Israel doesn't minimise damages, it in fact calls for the most extreme revenge against Palestine and minimises the media coverage when it blows back against them.
No matter what hamas has done it can't be allowed to deflect from Israeli crimes, Israel has been called out by the UN for committing genocide.
The fact you compare a terrorist organisation to a state that should be expected to be held to a higher set of standards is pretty damming to that state.
Did they? Or did Hamas? If it was Israel, do you know why they did it? How are you getting access to that information?
Is Gaza still there or did they destroy it? Still there? Oh, okay. Is it extreme revenge to spend a week telling civilians to evacuate? Is it extreme to spend the blood of your own soldiers in a ground invasion to destroy an enemy that has sworn to never stop attacking you?
So you're literally excusing terrorism now. At least you took your mask off.
Well they did wait until they were attacked. There's a reason all of these events are happening right now. Remember what happened on the 7th? Who was responsible for that?
Israel was responsible for the 7th, they created the situation and they moved troops from the border to torment the west bank. Israel failed it's people on that day.
You try the same old shit, I call out Israeli crimes and you say I'm endorsing terrorism. I can be critical of terrorist organisations at the same time as being critical of nation states.
Remember Israel just spent 7 million dollars on YouTube ads in the past 10 days, so i hope youre not pushing state propaganda for free, they can well afford to pay you too.
What's the problem with Israel moving their troops around? There still had to be Hamas who invaded their country, raped their parents, brutalized their children, and uploaded the videos to Facebook. That part you left out?
I always think it's ironic when people argue that literal terrorists aren't responsible for their actions. "Sure, what Hamas did was bad... but Israel made them do it!" Its exactly like punching someone and claiming they made you punch them. No, they didn't. You are responsible for your actions, and Hamas is responsible for theirs. You are removing responsibility from a terrorist organization that would kill you without hesitation, do you understand?
Nah you only ask what happened on the 7th, you don't want anyone to look earlier than that.
2023 was already one of the bloodiest years for Palestinians before the 7th.
Israel has been punching for years then crys when they get punched back only to punch all the harder while still playing the victim.
Ofc they have a responsibility to their own actions but I would view them like the French resistance. Paraphrasing from a BBC article on war crimes committed by the French resistance: you can commit what is morally wrong while still being on the side of righteousness.
You are removing responsibility from a state that has a duty to protect it's people. Never mind that it was very likely they knew something was coming.
They would not kill me at all because I'm not a settler living on stolen land. If you are scared that they will kill you you've got to ask yourself why. Most people in the world do not live on occupied land and do not live under any such threat.
So this is righteousness? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAFDI63yvNQ
https://imgur.io/jNUaFU2
You think the terrorist organization that took 200+ hostages of all nationalities, would hesitate to kill you. I mean, maybe you could suck up to them hard enough, I don't doubt that. Do you see Israel running around with a plan to rape, burn, and behead Palestinians? Go to Gaza is you love Hamas so much, see what happens.
You wouldn't mean these hostages?
Israeli settlers and soldiers tortured, raped and murdered Palestinians in the west bank.
Israel also is imprisoning a number of Palestinians including 500-1000 children in military detention each year and currently an estimated ~150 minors in the Israeli prison system, are they not hostages?
If I go to Gaza/west bank, based on the deaths so far I'd be more likely to die by IDF stray bullets or Israeli bombs than by hamas.
You ignore Israeli crimes and just point out hamas, its exactly what you accuse me of doing.
You're perfectly happy eating Hamas propaganda. Again, you're simping for terrorists and if you don't have a problem with that, it at least speaks to your rationality in this argument. On the one hand, you're trying to argue how bad Israel's treatment of Palestinians is, on the other, you have to trust Hamas to do it. You don't know anything about what has happened to the other hostages and how they were treated. You want Hamas to seem more humane, so you extrapolate from anecdote. Watch the video that I posted. Do you see Israel doing that? Are they invading Gaza and gunning down random Palestinians?
You keep trying to draw equivalences but you fail because you ignore the intention of the acts, which is entirely what matters in criminal cases. You pretend that Israel has prisoners, that those are hostages. No, they're prisoners, they're in prison because of crimes they committed. It literally does not matter if they're children, you don't get to roam around and be a danger to society just because you're under 18. You have no idea what those children have done, yet you freely pretend that they must be hostages and big bad Israel is wrong for keeping them incarcerated. You're not a legal expert and you have no clue why they're there.
I don't doubt that you'd be in danger of IDF if you went to Gaza, but that's because you'd be hanging out with Hamas. Make your bed and lie in it.
You don't know what's happening to the other hostages either but you assume the worst and eat Zionist propaganda up.
Nearly the same amount of Palestinian children have been randomly murdered by Israeli bombs as people died on the 7th, thats not even counting all the other innocent men, women, press, UN staff, medical workers and hostages that have died because of Israels indiscriminate bombing.
They are currently mowing the lawn with bombs rather than gunning them down. The effect is the same.
There have been 1000 people detained in the west bank recently, Israel is detaining Jewish citizens because they are going against the government by calling for peace.
Israelies can not currently enact their right to protest against the government. That doesn't scream democracy to me.
The fascist Zionist state hurts Israeli Jews as well as Israeli/Palestinian Christians and Muslims.
Did you watch the video that I posted? That's what you're supporting.
Irrelevant. People die in war, including civilians, and including children. If Palestinians cared about their children, they would raise them to not attack Israel. Apparently, they cannot or will not. This is the consequence. Israel is not there to exact an eye for an eye. They are there to destroy any threat to their security. That means destroying Hamas and all who support them.
Again, prove that it's indiscriminate? You don't know what the IDF knows, so you can only be propagandizing with statements like that. You want Israel to be indiscriminately bombing Gaza, because of how that changes the appearance of the situation. The fact you have to lie is evidence itself that you're wrong. Is Gaza still there? Are they indiscriminately bombing south Gaza? Of course not. And, what does this have to do with creating a solution to the war? You advocate for peace, but you ignore what will happen to Israel if they lay down their weapons. What happens to the Palestinians if they surrender? Will they be destroyed? What happens to Israel? I bet you won't answer.
Free speech is not absolute, as you well know. Should you have the right to tell someone you're going to murder them and then face no punishment for your free speech? People calling for peace, like you, and like those arrested, are simultaneously calling for the destruction of Israel, because there is no alternative. It is the logical consequence of what happens when Israel allows Hamas to exist. You can stop pretending you're anti-war and pro-peace, because you're not. You're pro-palestine and you're mad your favored side is losing. Right or wrong, at the end of the day, Israel exists. They aren't going to just die because you're sympathetic to terrorists. It would be wise to stop attacking the giant bear that has the power to oppress and destroy you.
So it's war and Israel considers all Palestinian children as threats.
Hang on you just said every child is a threat and they are going after every threat but that's not indiscriminate or genocide?
I'm advocating for liberation of Palestinian people and the destruction of the Zionist state.
You can't pretend that those calling for peace are calling for the destruction of Israel and should be suppressed. Israel has not disappeared in peace time during the last 75 odd years, in fact it keeps getting stronger and bigger.
So don't defend yourself from this angry bear that thinks you are a threat and wants to kill or oppress you even if you haven't done anything yet.
You really said the quiet part out loud in this comment.
Where did Israel say that? Source? More lies for your pathetic defense? Who did Israel declare war against? Hamas. They declared war against Hamas. If you want to say that Palestinian children are part of Hamas, that's on you and the Palestinians.
Quote where I said that, you lying terrorist simp. I have repeatedly said Hamas is the threat and the target of IDF attacks. The fact you have to lie again just shows how irrational you are in this argument.
Ironic. You really said the quiet part out loud in this comment. You claimed at the beginning of this that you are pro-palestine, and what I showed was that truly means you're anti-Israeli and demand their destruction. Guess what happens when you start a war and lose? You get shit taken from you. That's what happens. This is exactly why Hamas will be destroyed, because they will never stop starting wars with Israel. Don't ever say you care about the deaths of innocents. Don't ever say you care about preventing genocide. You don't, you liar. You care about Palestinians getting to eradicate Jews, and you don't care how many innocent Jews die to get that. Well, guess what? The Palestinian people are too fucking incompetent to get what you want. They lost war after war after war, so this is what happens. Keep simping, it means nothing.
I'm not pretending, you just admitted to it.
Again, because you can't stop sucking up to terrorists; Israel is defending themselves from Hamas who will never stop attacking them. If all Gazans laid down their weapons, there could be peace. If all Israel laid down there weapons, they would be genocided and suddenly you would not want to talk about genocide any more. You have no argument, you only lie and manipulate optics to continually attack Israel which you hate. This too only speaks to your irrationality in this argument. You have nothing.
Again this is you saying Palestinian children are threats and that Israel is justified to remove threats
Nice racism
Yes personally, I'm pro-palestine which means I'm anti-israel not anti-israeli. The state built on fascism and oppression is what needs destroyed not the people. Nice of you to shoehorn the old if your anti-israel you are antisemitic, really filling up my Zionist bingo card.
When I talk about the people who call for peace, I'm talking about other people from myself, the liberals who IMO misguidedly see peace without Palestinian liberation as the solution. You insult your own intelligence to call these people anti-israeal or pro-palestine. They are pro-peace. We can both say they are wrong but they mean well. It is their human right to protest and in a democracy individuals should be able to call out their government for committing war crimes or supporting war criminals. This isn't possible in Israel and a good few western nations supporting Israel right now.
No, but leave it to a terrorist supporter to lie and misrepresent what I said. I meant exactly what I said, and only that. Apparently, the Palestinian people are unable or unwilling to raise their children to desire peace. The result is Hamas. Never did I say I support killing children, unless you are saying that Hamas is made of children. What I literally said in the comment you quoted is that Israel is there to destroy Hamas and all who support them. If you believe there are children supporting Hamas, you're agreeing with my earlier point, that the Palestinians don't love their children enough to put them on a path of peace.
Nice dodging the point. Just because in talking about a group of people, and even about how that group has failed in a certain way, doesn't make it racism. It is apparent that the Palestinians will not or cannot stop their children from attacking Israel. This war is the consequence of that. You don't punch the big bear standing next to you and expect to be free from consequences.
Great, so like I said from the start, you're advocating for peace except your advocacy really means Israel should be destroyed. Israel gets attacked by terrorists and the result is that you think they should be destroyed. You don't repeatedly start wars, lose those wars, and then get to dictate terms to the winning army. Israel is, at least in principle, a democracy. If you want to take out fascist dictators oppressing people, you should be looking at Hamas, you know, the literal terrorists killing Gazan civilians and blaming it on Israel.
No, they're pro-ignorance is what they are. There can be no peace when one side has sworn to destroy Israel and kill all Jews. Go to Hamas and beg for peace, go on. These people say they want peace, but what happens when Israel lays down their weapons? These calls for peace are an empty call for Israel to do something it cannot do if it wants security for its people. As such, these are not calls for peace, these are calls to rally against Israel and ignore the terrorism of Hamas.
If you said black people were too incompetent to free themselves from slavery you'd be racist.
If you say Palestinians are too incompetent to win any wars then you're racist.
Its the same fucking thing you dolt and victim blaming.
So might is right. If the Nazis won world war two, do you think they should be allowed to do what ever the fuck they want to conquered peoples because they won?
You keep saying palestinian children are threats and Israel should be allowed to destroy any threat even if its not imminent (contradicting international law but hey ho) then saying oh but children aren't actually being targeted, they're just dying in large numbers because of IDF whoopsies.
Nope, that's a factual statement. Stating facts isn't racist. Racism involves subjective bias. What I said was, the Palestinian people are unable or unwilling to teach their children to want peace, so this war, like the wars before it, is the consequence. If your enemy raises their children to be soldiers, you destroy their soldiers.
No, might does not make right, but it does decide the outcome. Israel has the might, and Palestinians keep attacking them. Fuck around and find out. Israel will not allow Palestinians to endlessly attack their citizens and threaten their nation. Now they're going to do something about it, so keep crying the team you like threw punches and picked a fight with someone they can't win against. I, for one, am not crying.
You realize children grow up into Hamas fighters and they're still somebody's child? I wasn't talking about literal children. I'm saying that is somebody's child running around with an AK going door to door murdering Israeli civilians. The Palestinian people, if they cared about the life of their children, could have raised them to want peace. They failed. Now their children are soldiers, and for that, they've set their children up to die. That's on the Palestinians, not on Israel. Peace will come when the Palestinians love their children and care for their future more than they hate Jews and Israel.
you're right, there should be no preemptive self defense, they should wait for hamas to slaughter hundreds and hundreds of their citizens before bombing anyone.
No need to wait, that already happened.
Aww did someone tell you that running a genocidal apartheid state would be easy and have no risks?
What poor genocide apologists.
If zionists cared about human rights, they wouldn't be trying to re-settle the "holy" land
Those poor innocent invading soldiers trying to invade and colonize more and more land from these savage indigenous people. If only the indigenous people just accepted their fate peacefully and just give up their homes to the colonizers. They simply are the wrong ethnicity so they have to leave their houses or be shot. Not enough people consider how bad that makes the colonizers feel. Not leaving your house means you are just asking to be killed.
Israel has stated their intention to destroy Hamas, as you well know. If you cared about your cause, I'm not sure why you would lie and misrepresent what Israel is doing? You're not going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you, which is to say it's pointless. Be mad if you want. If Israel wanted the land, they would have taken it already. If Israel wanted to destroy Gaza, they would have already. Clearly, what they want is to destroy Hamas while allowing the innocents to live. They have a right to defend themself. Sorry that hurts you.
There are certainly Jews that are indigenous to that region, but most of them are not.
And in any case, why would Jews that haven't lived there for multiple generations have more rights to the land than people actually living there?
Can an Irish-American go to Ireland and kick people out of their houses? No! They can move there and get their own house, that's it. Same with Jews wanting to live in Palestine. They can move there, they can't form their own country and deport the people living there. That's called ethnic cleansing.
What do you call it when you have a stated mission to kill all Jews and destroy Israel? Ethnic cleansing? Geno-what?
Palestinians are in the position they're in because they lost a war. When you lose, you don't get to make demands of the victor. If they wanted peace, they could stop harboring Hamas and raising their children to want to kill Jews. If they wanted peace, they could ask for peace. With Israel, there is at least in principle, the ability to have peace. With Hamas and their charter, there can never be peace.