this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2023
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Antiwork

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  1. We're trying to improving working conditions and pay.

  2. We're trying to reduce the numbers of hours a person has to work.

  3. We talk about the end of paid work being mandatory for survival.

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[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 136 points 1 year ago (41 children)

I ain’t gonna judge how one chooses to sell their body, time, safety, health, etc. But we do need to treat sex workers like other workers and ensure they have safe working conditions and the freedom to leave their employment at will. Heck while we’re at it we should extend it to agricultural labor too

[–] RoquetteQueen@sh.itjust.works 50 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Farm workers in Ontario, Canada are not entitled to:

  • minimum wage
  • daily and weekly limits on hours of work
  • daily rest periods
  • time off between shifts
  • weekly/bi-weekly rest periods
  • eating periods
  • three-hour rule (if you show up for work and are sent home before you've been there for three hours, most jobs are required to pay you for three hours)
  • overtime pay
  • public holidays or public holiday pay
  • vacation with pay
[–] Fogle@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Are you suggesting we don't give it to sex workers because farmers don't have it or we give it to farmers too.

Technically I think most farmers are their own business so if they want to have holidays off they can. The alternative is state run farms which I support fully and completely.

[–] Steeve@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Think they were referring to the last sentence from the comment they replied to:

Heck while we’re at it we should extend it to agricultural labor too

So most definitely just supporting agricultural workers rights.

Technically I think most farmers are their own business so if they want to have holidays off they can

Only 47% are self employed actually, and 30% are temporary foreign workers that can get screwed pretty bad

[–] Fogle@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

Only 47% are self employed

Does this count family members?

[–] RoquetteQueen@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm just saying what farm workers don't get. Farm workers and sex workers both deserve better than they get. This is specifically for people employed on farms and not for people who own farm businesses. Most of our food is grown by people making less than minimum wage. The people who own the farms aren't the ones doing most of the work.

[–] zuhayr@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

You're crazy! /s

[–] CarlCook@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Especially agricultural work, as there is equally as much (sexual) exploitation happening!

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I feel people who equalise sex work with other jobs downplay (immensely) the toll sex work has on the majority of sex workers.

It is really not comparable to construction work or any other job. Even in countries were sex work has long been legalised, there is no other job, by a long shot, which has so many people suffering from PTSD, drug and alcohol abuse.

[–] JamesFire@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

To be blunt, that's not at all relevant to the fact that they should have the same rights as everyone else if they do choose to do it.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's why I was not saying they shouldn't have the same rights as everybody else. But instead I said what I said?! That this type of comparisons to other jobs downplays in my opinion that sex work is not just like any other job.

[–] unfreeradical@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Are you aware of any sources specifically evaluating participation in sex work as a causal factor in mental and substance disorders (as opposed to sex work represented more prominently in populations already affected)?

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, this study corrected for reports of CSA, lower income, etc. in people who are drug addicts. For those who are additionally sex workers they found:

increased rates of mental and physical health problems (eg, suicide attempts, anxiety, STDs, and bloodborne infections) and use of some health services (eg, emergency department visits for women and mental health services for men)

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/482625#SEC2

There aren't many studies done which correct for mental health issues before someone starts as a sex worker. Even less which achieve a long-term study over a cohort of sex workers where not ~80 % can't be found anymore for various reasons.

But there are a few on how to protect the ~~Johns~~ sex workers from STDs. I leave the interpretation of this inbalance in research to you. :-)

[–] unfreeradical@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If two effects are correlated, then three possible causal relationships are possible.

A first effect may cause the second, or the second may cause the first, or a so-called third variable may cause both.

It is possible that an individual who has been afflicted by certain difficulties is more likely to participate in sex work.

It is also possible that individuals from certain populations are more likely to participate in sex work, and also, due to being associated with the population, are also more likely to be afflicted by certain difficulties.

Both possibilities must be considered as alternative to sex work causing such difficulties, to explain the correlation.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I do know how correlation works. The study above shows that, when you correct for previous mental health issues, for lower socioeconomic status, low income, drug abuse, etc. sex work increases various mental and physical health risks and mortality.

[–] unfreeradical@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Right. The remaining possibility is the third variable. Membership in certain populations may be associated with increased likelihood of becoming a sex worker and also of experiencing difficulties that you are suggested are caused directly by being a sex worker. Such difficulties may appear after someone has become a sex worker, even while having an independence cause.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Sure, but that is true for ever job then. An unknown and hidden confounding factor explaining job choice and the problems of the job can always exist.

Police officer or fire fighter aren't actually dangerous. It is simply that people who are more likely to make bad decisions that get them killed also are those that choose to be police officer or fire fighters.

Burnout does not affect teachers with higher probability than it affects hairdressers. It is because people who get burnouts are also the people who choose to be teachers.

[–] unfreeradical@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Sure, but that is true for ever job then. An unknown and hidden confounding factor explaining job choice and the problems of the job can always exist.

The general principle may apply to any job, but you wanted to study the population of sex workers in particular, and doing so requires collecting and analyzing data, in regard to sex workers, properly and sufficiently, toward a conclusion.

I only suggested that your conclusion may not be robust if sex work is disproportionately represented by populations that carry broader vulnerabilities to some of the difficulties that you inferred were directly consequences of sex work.

[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Um, law enforcement comes to mind.

Not to say PTSD and unhealthy coping problems aren't a valod concern, but if we're going to try to reduce jobs based on how taxing they are on the human psyche, there are a number of fields that are respected that also qualify.

Off the top of my head, schoolteacher and service industry worker. Cooks amd wait staff.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, apparently not even war veterans have similar high rates of PTSD.

For sources you can look here, for example: https://bmcwomenshealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12905-017-0491-y

Or here: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-459170/v1.pdf

When you consider that even in countries like Germany it's almost exclusively poor women from other countries, often single mothers and/or already with mental health issues, who do sex work, I think it's very naive to believe the job is the same like flipping burgers or construction work. Or that these issues only stem from stigma and working conditions.

[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Unless I missed them, I don’t see comparisons to war veterans, at most the second one compares them to civilian survivors.

In any case, I don’t think anyone is questioning the fact that sex workers need way safer working conditions, it was the very point of the first commenter. “Treating them like other workers” was meant in a good sense, as they’re currently treated worse.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago

These jobs don't come close, though. They also don't attract primarily people who are already poor and mentally unwell to put them into a situation hard to leave that further increases their problems.

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