this post was submitted on 27 Sep 2023
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I was still quoted 40K CAD. 20 year ROI. Not feasible for me.
If you are willing to DIY you can cut that number dramatically. Out of curiosity what was the size of the array in that quote and did it include battery storage if so how much chances are that you can cut it by anywhere from 50% to 75% if you're willing to Simply purchase directly and install yourself. The amount that installers charge is absolutely asinine usually 50% or more of that quote is just the installation which is in the same because it's not difficult at all. People like to act scared like oh that'll be difficult or hard or dangerous, it's extremely simple you're dealing with DC which is very straightforward everything is very clearly labeled on that equipment and it's quite simple to do yourself
Is there a go-to source for diy product and instructions? I'm interested in doing this in the near future.
I can't think of any One-Stop shop for literally everything, but there is a lot of great material out there both on forums and on YouTube. If you take it one step at a time and look at each individual piece of the installation you'll be able to find fantastic instructions for all of them fairly easily.
If you are in the US I recommend purchasing from signature solar, they have a lot of great bundles that will both save you some money and get you everything you need. I'd also say they have the best battery storage options, their rack mount batteries and their new wall mount battery are both fantastic and very easy to work with. They also sell solar panels by the pallet which helps you get a nice large array at a good price.
If I had to pick the hardest part it would just be making sure you get the grounding right on the inverter, if you're not careful it's pretty easy to end up with a ground Loop which isn't particularly dangerous but it will cause lots of weird little issues like flickering lights and other annoyances. But it's fairly easy to correct it it's usually just a result of people connecting both the input and the output on the inverter as well as bonding the secondary panel to the primary panel which creates a ground loop. The solution is as simple as just don't connect to the input power ground to the inverter only connect to the output ground so that it has to go through the ground Bond on the panels
It will definitely sound like a lot, but again if you just take each individual piece by itself it's very straightforward very simple and you'll be able to get it done while saving an absolute asinine amount of money compared to an installer.
I will warn you that if you try to do gridtie, which is where you're able to send excess electricity back into the grid. That comes with a lot more red tape and can get a lot more complicated. I personally did an off-grid setup, which still uses the grid as a possible input so if my batteries are dead and there's no sun out I can still use the power like normal it's just not capable of sending Excess power back out into the grid so there's a whole bunch of red tape that I don't have to worry about.
An off-grid setup with grid power option is still considered a grid tie in my area since it needs a way to prevent backfeeding to the grid. Which is totally doable in several ways, just one additional thing to be aware of.
And as a former solar installer, I also remember looking at signature solar and thinking their kits looked the best.
That doesn't really make sense, since an off-grade inverter literally cannot backfeed. It's essentially just a computer UPS on steroids. It accepts the grid as an input that it can pass through but it's not possible for it to push energy back to the grid
It's 120v, there's nothing to synchronize? Not sure what you're talking about here. Same power is coming from the inverter, battery, grid, generator...
This is standard practice. Inverter - > monitoring - > maybe a knife disconnect - > main panel.
I'm not really sure what you are talking about, you need to synchronize both the phase of the power and the frequency. If they differ even slightly you damage your equipment. This is why when running multiple inverters in parallel they require both a Communication cable and a power sharing Cable in order to ensure that they stay perfectly synchronized. Inverters capable of doing grid tie have equipment in them to monitor the mains power and make sure that they stay synchronized with it. Whereas an off-grid inverter does not contain that equipment which is why they are generally cheaper
There are several different possible phases for 120 volt they are not all the same. And while hooking to the mains may be standard practice for something that can grid tie it is not standard practice for an off-grid inverter. You are specifically expected to have a secondary panel specifically for that inverter. The mains power will reach that secondary panel through the inverter when it's in pass through but the panel should in no way be connected to the mains directly (other than a ground bond between the secondary panel and the mains)
With that having been said, I have no doubt that solar installers have instead opted to continue to use inverters that are capable of grid tie even in a installation that will not be backfeeding. Probably just to reduce the amount of inventory required so that they can get full purchase orders. But that doesn't change the fact that a proper true off-grid inverter is not capable of tying into the mains without destroying itself
The fact that you say you were a solar installer, but you're not even aware of something as simple as phases and frequency synchronization is part of the reason I feel like solar installers are wildly overpaid. You're basically doing the bare minimum without really understanding what it is you're doing
I mean, the other option is you're pulling things out of your ass like every other armchair expert on the internet.
Like...no. You get 240v 2p incoming with a split bar. 120v is 120v is 120v. Maybe you're dealing with 3 phase power but a residential building is not. And I have no idea why you'd have an inverter that outputs 3 phase power in a residential building.
https://youtu.be/NKIbR69opgc?si=kbp9mLaAZ5brQTxf
This is a nice little experiment to show you what happens when you try to parallel two inverters that are not synchronized. Just because the voltage matches does not mean they are in the same phase or synced up with their sine waves. You can also just look at the manual for any dedicated off-grid only solar inverter and they will make it very clear that you are not supposed to hook the output up to the mains panel and doing so will void your warranty and damage the unit. But I'm sure that those inverter manufacturers have no idea what they're talking about /s
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://youtu.be/NKIbR69opgc?si=kbp9mLaAZ5brQTxf
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
https://infosec.pub/comment/2861266
yea diy is the way: check Will Prowse on Youtube. He is the go to for diy solar and battery storage
https://youtu.be/RHRGKQSE8QU?si=D8UGKUrMyOGNDyyi
You can't get any of the stuff Will uses in Canada unfortunately, nobody will ship it here. We have overly strict regulations on importing bare lithium cells.
i would kinda get that. since buying batteries from unknown sources could imply a risk hazard. but what about panels and inverters ? those should easily be shipped from ebay or aliexpress. Phone/electronic parts are usually shipped from asia, idk what the exception for solar for.
Well that's nice but the vast majority of stuff he does is small-scale and there's very little in the way of installation instruction. Mostly just product reviews.
Is that paying cash for the solar system or financing? Financing can devastate the ROI with interest rates today. I'm looking at as long as 12 year ROI with possibly as short as 7 year ROI if I consider the USA's federal tax incentives. My slightly southern latitude (a border state with Canada) also likely contributes to slightly higher generation results using the same equipment.
How are the government incentives in Canada? I'm super envious of your great hydro power, my neighbor.
Bruh I got quoted 50k in St. Louis last year, would take decades for roi
That can’t be for a home. If it was it was predatory nonsense. It should be a 7 or 8 year ROI with a 20-30 year service life.
Maybe not all areas have much competition driving prices down? I’m in sunny hippie California where every other house has solar.
$50k is a pretty large installation, 18kw-22kw I'd guess for solar only (no battery storage). I'm hoping thats only a max of 100% replacement of electricity sourcing (meaning essentially no net grid consumption after you're installed). What's the price per KWh for electricity delivered to your door in St Louis? Its gotta be pretty crazy cheap if you're that large a consumer of electricity and you're paying in cash with no battery, and still looking at multiple decades of ROI with the US federal tax credit.
In Canada you can get a 40k loan from the federal govt that is 0% interest on a 10 year term for doing green upgrades to your home. My solar generates more in credits than than the cost of the loan over the year. The Greener Homes Program is a bit of a pain to jump through all the hoops but getting thousands off in grants and a 0% loan is worth it.
Who is owning a home in Canada lol. You'll pay your landlord $3000 for 1000sqft or fuck off.
Not all of us live in big cities where we would need to cry over high rent and house prices.
Even in the middle of nowhere a house is a million dollars.
They aren't.
I just moved last year.
But keep hyperbolizing, it only undermines the point you seem to want to hammer on.
... I also have eyes, and family in real estate. A tiny house an hour from any town is 1 million. A crack shack that needs to be demolished and rebuilt is 750K.
Maybe you live in Alberta? The place no one wants to be?
Nope in BC in a little city. The cost of houses here is rarely 1 Million. You seem to just want to be mad about things even if you need to exaggerate to be able to stomp your feet like a toddler over it. Since you have some anger over this so I'm gonna bid you a good day since talking to you is pointless when facts don't matter.
So because 1 city has affordable houses you talk for all of Canada? lmao.
Link me some realestate listings, please. I'd love to see these houses..
Go have your tantrum elsewhere.
Show me listings.
Well it's the company/ies not the product
Was that recently or last year? Prices were out of control last year. Here prices have dropped almost 30% just since May.
July last year.
OK, you might be able to get offers at about half the price now then. If things are like they are here.
I calculated our ROI to about 9 years, the company however promises about 6, but I think that's overly optimistic.
Wow. 3000 square foot home here so we had a sizable system. It was $15k USD.
Ha, mines like 1200
how much solar generation capacity and battery storage are u seeking ? where i live, a 2kw solar installation without battery (grid-tied system ?) costs about 3k$. system pays itself in 4 years and rest of existence is powered by free energy. want batteries ? a 1kwh costs about 300$. where i live 4kwh/day is more than enough, sometimes 10kwh/day in extreme heat/cold. but i guess american needs could differ (30kwh/day maybe?). to recharge 30kwh batteries, u would need extra solar capacity (maybe 7kwc ?), and that would run at 9k$, add 30kwh batteries ? another 9k$.. idk what the 50k CAD are for
We ran for almost 16 months on 4kwh of storage and 4 350w panels. We don't use it for heat since we live in a forest and burn our own wood in a woodstove, but for everything else we needed it was grand. Total cost was about $4500CAD
Having said that - When the power company offered to extend the grid out here, we took them up on it. So now the 4kwh is more than enough to run the garage and a few outbuildings, while the main tinyhouse is tied to the grid.
Conversely - Our neighbour who has big 2800sqft house spent about 25k to be able to run as if they are in the city.
Not saying any of this to bolster any argument. I just like talking about it :p
totally understandable. i am aware that prices aren't the same everywhere, thats why i decided to share prices of solar of where i am living. sharing quotes could help one another save on costs, and ur number of 4k CAD is really quite reasonable for 1.4Kw system and a 4Kwh battery (which is really a good bang for the buck, since batteries are the expensive part most of the time) but the user of the comment above me was quoted 40k CAD which is really absurd, but they didnt disclose the specifications of their system yet, so not much to judge. But solar has been really cheap for a while now. 25k CAD for a 260m² house ? maybe their house required too much climate control or they are charging an Ev, u could help assess how much solar they r installing on the roof: 5m² would correspond to 1kw of solar, if they r not installing alot of panels and yet have spent alot of money the rest of it probably went for batteries, among many possibilities..
I am not judging the neighbour at all. He is a great guy with a ton of smarts. My 'house' is 420sqft, and his is over 2800. And he doesn't enjoy the roughing it parts of life as much as I do. I work in tech so to me things like bringing water up from the creek, or cutting my own firewood, are like therapy. But when he comes out here, he wants all the comforts of his city house. And he deserves that.
And as a bonus - I get to see him test different configs and products before I even have to think about them :)
yea i agree. each has their way of unwinding from work.
Who did you contact for your solar install, or did you do it yourself?
I did it myself. But I cheated... The main storage unit is a bluetti unit. That runs about 80% of our needs. The other 20% comes from a DIY solution. I built in a couple of Rubbermaid tubs with six volt golf cart, batteries in series and an inverter.
15.75kW and an inverter, installation in there too. 41k - 5k gov rebate. Too rich for my blood.
16kw/0.4=38 * 100$= 3800$(usd). 1700$ for a 16kw Growatt inverter. Extra 5k$ for breakers and copper lines etc (total=10500$). Still, idk what the rest of 20k usd are for (40k cad= 30k usd). Yea, seems kinda too much. Is solar having a lobby now ?
It was July last year so maybe the prices were just that much more insane then
probably
Zero battery. Who did you contact? I only contacted one company. This was also about a year and a half ago
i dont live in Canada, but that quote was from a third party solar installation company, that gets a license from the utility company to install a two-way electricity meter to tie the solar system to the grid. and yea those prices have been the same for a year now, if not dropped. a 2kw inverter is about 300$, 400w panel is about 100$*5=500$. meter=60$. the rest (3k$-860$=2140$) are costs of copper wire,breakers, labour and margin. maybe cost of labour in Canada is high, hence the high quote. better install it urself: check Will Prowse on youtube, assembling a solar system is like a lego game
How much of that is installation costs?