this post was submitted on 10 Sep 2023
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Yeah, the second one will directly affect the first one positively. Essentially, school work needs to be the most interesting thing you can do in school, otherwise you will have low motivation. It's not the job of the the school staff to make the material extremely interesting, it's their job to remove every more interesting thing from the reach of students.
Read up on dopamine if you didn't understand that.
(And yes, this affects adults too)
While you're on that, you could research how things don't become more interesting by the absence of more interesting things and how dopamine is required for attention and information retention.
Doing nothing to motivate except removing potential distractions from unengaging school work doesn't work and can even hurt students' mental health as they experience issues of guilt and inadequacy from being unable to do what's required of them.
What exactly should be done to motivate?
I ask because schools do a lot to motivate but kids often dismiss it as lame or complain about the efforts. It's very easy to say "motivate kids" but actual ideas aren't common.
Let me give you an example, everyone has heard "when will we use this in real life?" in math class. The same people asking those questions are the same that groan at word problems. So you have kids complaining that won't be able to use something in real life, and upset when they have to solve a real life problem. What's the real complaint the student has? They have to try.
I agree that so much more can be done to make school fun, but it's not all on the teachers. Students have to be present, participate and willing to leave their comfort zone in order to have better results.
Great question. And a hard one. But knowing a proposed solution will worsen the situation is an important step in it.
It's like every time a person says "see, this is what happens when you don't hit children" at every behavior issue. Even though we know that hitting children objectively worsens behavior over doing nothing, but they insist that doing the only thing they know, even if harmful, is better.
I had a math teacher that helped us see which math we would use in real life, and which math we wouldn't, and helped us understand why the latter was still important for us to know. Everyone paid attention to her.
When you have a room of 30 students and 29 of them are complaining about something, we need to remind people that one of the real life uses of math (stats & probability to be precise) is to point out how unlikely it is that those 29 students are the causal variable.
"Personal Responsibility" attitudes just doesn't work for crowd dynamics, especially with regards to children. The way a group behaves is nearly 100% predictable from the balance of outside human factors. In this case, the outside factors are parents and teachers. That's it. Either there is something that all the parents are doing wrong, or the teachers.
Since there are some teachers who have far more success than others (common "favorite subjects" based on school), that means the most likely cause, and mechanism for improvements, are the teachers.
But we know children learn better without phones https://www.theeducatoronline.com/k12/news/the-evidence-is-clear-students-learn-better-without-mobile-phones-in-class/276071 You are the person insisting on hitting the child here.
Putting phones in school makes learning harder.
You are saying 29 out of 30 people can't be right, which is very wrong. But what you miss is that it's really 3-4 kids disrupting and the rest going along because it's easier.
It's the path of least resistance, and people will jump onto the easy path.
Except they do. Look at all the examples of Japanese fans cleaning stadiums.
In a crowd most people will follow the norm. If the norm is playing on your phone and not listening, the you have a bad time. It's not punishing kids because teachers are bad at their jobs, it's setting a behavioral norm.
Next time you dislike your teacher think about when you got stuck in a group with people who wouldn't do anything. Now imagine a class full of them. If just one or two more people put in a little effort good things would happen.
I disagree. For two reasons. First, there is only a couple studies in your link, and its "difference-in-difference" strategy does not seem (at least prima facie) to shown effective isolation to only a single variable. Second, it seems to be making the same mistake previously made by Psychologists in the "hitting children" debate, making unsubstantiated (or "common sense") conclusions about the gulf in the middle after only doing a quick analysis of the two extremes. Further, your link also calls question your claim by pointing out Switzerland did not find any effectiveness in banning phones.
And the "hitting" reference was intended to point out the concern against positive advancement. There was a time where psychologists thought hitting was better than nothing even when they knew it was net harmful and so did not strongly discourage it when parents could not or would not embrace more modern parenting strategies. The same is true of phones in school (and, per your link, laptops in college). Looking at the laptop studies I could find, they have the same methodological problems the phone studies have. They're looking presumptively at distraction, and setting up an experiment where distraction is more pronounced.
Yet laptops have a lot more research than phones. Studies mentioned above compare ubiquitous laptop use and scores, while failing to address that each individual that uses a laptop averages higher scores than individuals who do not. What studies I could find with phones could be moving in the direction of that same dynamic that shows missing understanding of how to be use technology in learning.
Let's look at the other side of things. Another study (again, possibly flawed...I don't trust either side's phone studies much yet) found that removing a phone ban in NY caused an increase in overall student obedience and educational productivity, at the cost of "school culture". As someone who grew up as a victim of "school culture" in a world where teachers supported bullying (and in many places they still do), I have no problem with that trade-off. Of course, this study does directly contradict your educatoronline article.
From this fairly balanced piece (which agrees with both my article and yours in some ways):
"If educators do not find ways to leverage mobile technology in all learning environments, for all students, then we are failing our kids by not adequately preparing them to make the connection between their world outside of school and their world inside school"
...which is more important than test scores.
Is that something you can cite, or just your own personal "pick em up by their bootstraps" opinion? Do you have any experience with crowd simulation? Can you show any evidence that your explanation is likely, or even reasonably possible?
That's... not an effective or topical rebuttal at all. Did you misunderstand what I meant by "Personal Responsibility" attitudes? I referred to blaming the individuals in a large group for their failure instead of blaming the causal elements of the group. I have to deal with that type of problem regularly, where a manager tries to blame a majority of his reports (all capable and talented) of being the problem when something goes wrong. Guess who I ultimately find responsible?
Thankfully, I'm decades out on that. From the kinds of things I see and read about education, I'm grateful I don't have to go back. But then, my education started after school anyway.
Great! But you have no evidence to support your argument. Your apples to oranges comparison of laptops isn't compelling. Nor am I compelled by your methodology argument, which seems to take issue with testing a hypothesis that phones are a distraction.
Once again, we know cellphones are detrimental to learning. This is not a matter of schools failing to adapt to new technology. Tablets, computers, interactive software and more are used. It is about unrestricted cell phone use, which studies have shown hinders learning.
No it doesn't. It says that no phones mean better learning. You are missing the forest for the trees.
Lots of research has been done on this, and a small number of people can influence a large group. Look at "wave" studies for more info.
Calling minimum acceptable classroom behavior "picking yourself up by your bootstraps" is absurd. It's like saying that you can't expect people to not talk at the theater because that's just asking too much of people.
I cited two pieces of fairly substantive evidence in reply to someone who cited a single article. If you don't think that is reasonable escalation of evidence, we can stop now.
My cited references contradict that. More importantly, your article contradicts the "we know" part. Let me quote your reference: "Research from Sweden, however, suggests little effect of banning mobile phones in high school on student performance. "
My references made clear argument that this is indeed a case of schools failing to adapt to new technology. I even quoted a relevant quote to you.
"My findings suggest an improvement in educational productivity due to the NYCDOE’s ban removal". I understand there's a double-negative in that reference, but the cited study's findings suggest that "yes phones mean better learning". You might disagree with it, but please reread it so that you do not misrepresent it.
Sure. Please demonstrate that your claims are correct. Until then, and especially because you seem to have failed to comprehend the involved references, I will wish you luck.
I've lived an entire life of watching people blame the bulk of individuals for failures by authorities. I have become reasonably skeptical of any claims that "it's everyone but..." the decision-maker.
One of the problems with arguing with people online is I tend to assume people are arguing in good faith.
After getting about 50 studies showing that cell phones are bad for learning, I switched to duckduckgo. Not until page 3 did I find your sources. You have waded through data that says you are wrong. I'm not interested in copying them for you.
One of the things that stop me from arguing with people online is when they accuse me of arguing in bad faith because I have facts they don't like. From such no-name sites as Harvard.
EDIT: For future reference (and 2 points):
So in summary, the only reply that would not have been "bad faith" in your eyes would be to concede the argument. So you got it. Congrats, you were right about every opinion you've ever had in your life.
It's concerning that you think the absence of a device is comparable to the presence of a action, in this case hitting.
I'm genuinely lost on how you think the only variable here is whether something is being banned or being encouraged. Or should I say, it's "concerning". Did you have a smartphone in school?
Fyi when you resort to trying to mock people, they won't want to talk to you.
Hmm. I'm curious about this. I repeated the words you used because I thought it was appropriate to do so. Were you resorting to trying to mock me in the first place?
If so, then "glass houses" and all that. If not, then please don't take my reply as mocking. I genuinely mean it. And I am genuinely curious if you had smartphones in school. We didn't have them when I grew up.
The best way to motivate is to build relationship and demonstrate a sense of excitement or at least show real-world connection to content. Relationship is the key, though. Students will care more about anything you say if they trust that you care about them.
And this is how we reached the point where sleep is more common in a classroom than anything else. They should make the material interesting enough that people won't have to resort to other stuff
I know what dopamine (the joy hormone which the body uses as a "reward") is. Since the body uses it as a "reward" if school gives students that, then students will like school
Nope. It's all relative. Compared to what's available via the phone and internet, 90% of school material is fundamentally more boring, because important things are often boring -- and there's almost nothing you can do about it. I mean sure, an incompetent/unmotivated teacher can make the material even less interesting, but that's also why we need competent teachers. That's a separate problem.
So the quest to make school material more interesting than the Internet is a dead end -- it's just impossible. So they need to make everything else less interesting. Which means that phones and computers can fuck right off. If there are kids for whom this is a difficult situation and they're unable to cope, such kids will need intervention. I.e. restrictions in free time as well.
Did you hear what I said about dopamine being the "joy hormone" and used as a "reward". Your body gives out happy hormones like this after an exercise and other good stuff for you (including school work if it is interesting)
And don't you tell me that knowledge isn't interesting. For something to be interesting (by my definition) it must give you knowledge.
Girls twerking on TikTok is not interesting - the way Hitler died is
Memes are not interesting (unless they contain important info)
These may produce dopamine in other ways but they are not interesting
I could be considered "tech savvy", I know a bit of C/PHP and a lot of shell script. Explain ro me how I could learn that without a computer (I'm also self-taught)
As I said, sleep is something that pupils prefer to schoolwork. Get schoolwork above a bar that low and then we can talk. Amyway, it just needs to be interesting enough that students won't feel a need to check social media
By using the computer or phone at home. Roughly half of the programmer workforce currently alive went through childhood without a mobile phone, because they didn't exist for regular consumers. And personal laptops for children would've been perhaps an option for the top 1%, but probably not even them. Since you just didn't have electronics in school.
Way more than half. Let's separate dumb phones from smart phones. Even smart phones weren't all that capable for a long time.
Please don't learn about how Hitler died through Tiktok. Befriend your librarian and read it in a book.
I dont use tiktok, I hate the app
You used Tiktok as an example for something that is more interesting than learning. (Of course it's more interesting than learning, it's digital crack cocaine.)
That's downright ridiculous. The most important skill for a teacher is an ability to effectively impart knowledge and in order to make students listen and remember, you need to make them interested.
No, they ABSOLUTELY don't. If I'm watching a fascinating TED Talk at home, I don't need anyone to make my favourite tv show boring in order for me to pay attention. That's not how attention works. For someone who seems at least dimly aware of the existence of dopamine, you seem remarkably confused about the effects of a lack of it.
So restrictions are your only tools? I really hope you're not a teacher or a parent, because your ideas seem not just ineffective but actually borderline abusive.
You're comparing a TED Talk that you chose to watch to school curriculum.
I'm a parent who has witnessed the effects of smart devices on children, and I have made serious mistakes in this area. Those mistakes are from being not restrictive enough. I believe the society has made similar mistakes, but is slowly turning to facing and understanding those mistakes. A generation has been lost, though, and some people (like yourself it seems) are still fighting against countering these problems. I hope you're not in any role where you can decide these things, because I think your opinions around this seem very harmful to both individuals and society.
Ignoring what we're fighting about, just think of what you said there. You are saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that we should just not allow people with opinions that contradict you to not have any power
Sorry if I came off rude or I'm putting words in your mouth but stuff like that is not ideas I take lightly. I think it's a threat to democracy
EDIT: I also hate stuff like this that directly attacks the person with the ideas. I have noticed that the replies to you became a lot ruder after you said that (probably it rubbed off.) I thing it is important to be calm in a discussion
Back to the topic
Teachers regularly put informational videos (including TED talks) on in the classroom. It never becomes less interesting because it's forced upon me - if anything their a nice change of pace
Can you please elaborate. What "mistakes" did you make and what do you do now (also please elaborate on the "mistakes" society made)
Also please elaborate on the "effect"
No one should be basing policy decisions on opinions anyway. Those should be based off facts and data.
That was a reaction to them saying that they hope I'm not a parent. Which I am. Obviously not a good reaction, but it happened.
I feel that I was attacked first and replied with similar energy, but oh well. That's how everyone feels in these things, right?
It was supposed to be an easy to understand example of information being imparted in a more efficient way because it's made interesting, not a one to one comparison. I felt that "listening to the teacher explain passionately and engagedly about the industrial revolution" was a bit clunky and on the nose.
I guess I underestimated how literal I have to be when dealing with someone who can't even imagine that pedagogy other than deprivation works.
No, those mistakes have likely been mostly from increasing the temptation to goof off on their phones by boring them.
Hey, I fell asleep halfway through your comment. Can you make it more engaging for me?
I apologize, but your comments started stuoid and the devolved into ignorant nonsense, and thus poor other fella keeps engaging you like you're capable of honest debate.
Education has never been about being more interesting than games or entertainment, and you sound like a nitwit for even suggesting it. Teachers are tasked with educating, and the #1 preventable reason for kids falling behind isn't "entertain me more!" . . . it's shit parenting and upbringing.
Kids lack impulse control worse than anyone -- taking away cell phones is an absolute no-brainer.
You said it better than I could
Make the material more interesting? Buddy, it's school not Qanon.
I find a lot of knowledge interesting. Being interesting involves knowledge
I think this has more to do with sleep deprivation. I can probably count the number of days I got a full night's rest while in high school and college on one hand. Rather than making classes more interesting (though they could do this as well I guess), they should focus on not completely overwhelming the students with homework, although I'll admit that was more of a college thing.
staring at a wall is more interesting then (badly done) school
Hey at least they give you some books to read if you're bored. They're heavy as hell, but you might learn something and get a well needed break from the phone.