Technology
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Funny you say this because I'm using one as I write this. Why? Because simply plugging in my headphones into the phone is way faster then connecting ones using bluetooth, because I just have pair of small cheap headphones in my backpack and because I wanted to listen to music now. Yes, I have BT headphones but those are big (over the ear headphones with big case) so I left them at home. Yes, I could get spare, small BT headphones but those are way more expensive and I would have to remember to charge them. Also, if I forget to bring headphones to work desktop support can give me a pair... with 3.5mm jack. So I'm also avoiding phones without a jack and it's not because I'm stubborn. It's because every now and then I still find myself using it. The day I stop using it I will be ready to get a phone without it.
You using obsolete technology doesn't make it any less obsolete..
Why do you keep trying to turn this discussion into a discussion of wireless vs wired? I'm not saying wires are obsolete, I'm saying the 3.5 mm standard is obsolete when it comes to modern smartphones because it's a standard from the literal 1950s (which is ultimately based on a standard from the 1800s)..
I don't have a 3.5 mm headphone jack, yet I can simply plug my wired headphones in using a wire too and just use it without bluetooth.. And I can use the same standard plug you too have in your phone already.. Why do we need an additional interface just for headphones when I can use the one that I already need to have in the first place?
It does actually. The fact that I can go to literally any electronics store and choose from dozens of different 3.5mm jack headphones, the fact that my laptop, my PC, my BT headphones and my phone all bought within last 2 years have 3.5mm jack interface literally proves that it's not obsolete, it's still in use. I would say that in the near future it will slowly become niche (jack interfaces will be in use in musical instruments for a very long time. find a entry level electric instrument with BT please) but it's definitely not obsolete. You're making things up.
Yes, with time more and more people will buy USB-C headphones, it will become a standard and dropping jack will not be an issue but the problem is phones makers, following Apples stupid idea, started doing it first. One of phone's functions is being a portable music player. Why start removing jack where they are used the most? I wouldn't complain if my BT headphones used USB-C for wired play, they came with non-standard cables anyway. I use my PC with BT headphones (almost) exclusively, I wouldn't care if it dropped the jack. People complain because with phones they are losing function they actually used, not some obsolete port no one was using any more.
While I share your disgruntlement, this is both cheap and easy to use. Should you have to use it? No. Would needing it stop me from getting a phone I otherwise wanted? Zero chance.
Oh, I agree. If it came down only to mini jack or no I would just get the phone and the dongle. The thing is, when I'm looking for a new phone, I check the price, if it's LOS compatible, if it has pinhole camera, how long will it be supported and so on. When I'm down to couple of equally good options and some of them are 'dongleless' I will go with that. It's a small issue but it's not a non-issue.
And once more it turns into an argument about definitions.. I thought it was clear from context, but I'm using "obsolete" here to mean "old fashioned" or "outdated", a perfectly viable way to use the word "obsolete" if you ask me.. And I mainly used it because as I mentioned, this discussion was settled with the previous fairphone.. Perhaps a better word to use is redundant and/or outdated.
The jack has been THE standard for decades, arguably centuries.. Frankly, I am surprised how fast the smartphone world switched. But of course it doesn't disappear over night, but that doesn't make it any less outdated/obsolete or whatever word you want to use here.. And there will still be viable headphones with the 3.5 mm audio jack, just not in the smartphone world.. That's why I wrote "the standard is obsolete when it comes to modern smartphones"..
The 3.5 mm jack is going to disappear from the smartphone world completely. Will it still be useful in some other cases? Sure, I don't see a viable replacement in some parts of the audio world. But in the smartphone world, where every single mm has an impact, it is, in my opinion, simply obsolete, especially when you already have other interfaces built in that essentially can do the same thing already.. It's just additional space being used that is not needed..
It already is a standard and it has been a standard for almost 10 years by now..
Of course they did, nobody wanted to be first to challenge a standard that was always the norm with portable devices, but no smartphone manufacturer wants a plug in their device that is unnecessary or redundant, which is why most followed once the first major player made the move.
Because at the end of the day, it's useless space.. And I get it, switching a standard, especially a standard that is so widely used, is always annoying for some time-period. But the switch started 7 years ago..
No, people complain because it's a change and change is annoying.. There is no actual loss of function, the audio jack doesn't have any function that USB doesn't have.
Well, I think you're simply wrong. I remember when PC makers stopped including floppy disk readers in the computers. Everyone just shrugged because no one was using them any more. Same happened when laptops and cars stopped including CD players. Same with many different ports and connectors. This is how it should be done: you introduce new, better standards, people switch and when it's actually obsolete (no one is using it any more) you remove it. People were (and are) still using mini jacks and companies simply decided to force the new standard on people. That's why people complain.
I think there is a fair argument to be made that back when apple pushed away from it, it was forced. I personally didn't care, but I understand why some people did.
But that's not what we are talking about, we are talking about today.. What's done is done..
Most people weren't and certainly aren't.. The people who still cling to the jack never seem to understand this, but most smartphone users simply don't care about audio quality on their phone.. Most people don't even listen to music on their phone.. And among those who do, most don't care or even notice the loss of quality with wireless.. And for the few who care, there are alternatives, such as adapters..
And just as a reminder, we are talking about the upcoming fairphone 5, a device that has the goal of lasting 10 years.. There is no reasonable justification for putting a port on it that has by now virtually disappeared from the smartphone market and that most people would never use..
Wow, that's a bold statement. After a quick ddg:
So yeah, 'most people don't listen to music on their phones' is only true in the sense that most people in the world don't own a phone. Lots and lots of people actually do it. I think you're looking at yourself and thinking that everyone is using a phone the same way you do. In reality people were used to just plugging their headphones into heir phone and now they can't. New standard was pushed on them and the only reason was to make some extra money on AirPods. Are the phones without mini jack cheaper? No. Are the USB headphones better? No. So yeah, people will move on in the end but they are right to complain. If we don't companies will just do it again.
If you think that it is a bold statement you absolutely live in a bubble..
Most people in the world do own a phone.. About 75% of the global population.. It's just that most use it to access the internet, write mails or, you know, call people..
As your study says, young people do listen to music on their phones. It even surprises me a bit that they only listen to 44% of their music on their phone, but otherwise, no objection. But not every smartphone user is a young person.. And even those that do use their phone to listen to music, not all of them listen with headphones. Many use it to play music in their car, or connect it to speakers, or even use their built in speakers, etc.
I used to, but the thing is, I do actually listen to music on my phone. Not as much as I used to, but I still do from time to time. And many in my immediate environment do too. But overtime, I realized that most people don't use their phone the same way I do, especially older people and non-technical savy people. Most listen to music in their car, or on the radio.
In reality, most people simply did not really care very much.. And more importantly, virtually nobody cares today..
Correct, and virtually everyone just shrugged and accepted it because most people did not care all that much..
My dude, people have already moved on years ago... Apple removed the jack in 2017.. Which is why I think it's ridiculous that people still act as if this is a controversial issue, let alone a dealbreaker, looking towards the future..
OK, so a quoter of all music consumed everywhere is consumed on the phone but you still claim that people don't use phones for music. I mean, if that's your point of view then obviously you will say that nothing related to music on phones matters. If you ignore all the people that care about an issue you will conclude that no one cares. Even though obviolsy a lot of people still care...
But I have never claimed that "people don't use phones for music", I claimed that most people don't use their phone to listen to music on their headphones.. Many do, me included, but most simply don't..
But I don't conclude that nobody cares.. Obviously at least some people care, this post was made by somebody who does for example.. But the thing is that a majority of people don't..
You keep making the same point: majority/most people didn't care so it's ok. I get it. You have a different standard. If a corporation can get away with something because most people will still blindly buy it's product it's ok for them to do it. But for me what Apple did was wrong. Mini jack was not obsolete, significant (for me, I know not significant enough for you) number of people were still using it and their decision didn't result in a better or cheaper product. It just made them more money while removing important feature for a lot of people (again, I know, not enough for you to care). And I simply try not to reward such behavior. Even you admitted they only did it for profit, not to deliver better product but you just don't care. That's fine, just don't criticize people that do care. It costs as little to protest (by avoiding companies that do the same) and we'll do it as long as we can.
You made a claim that I wrote something I didn't write, do you expect me to just let you put words into my mouth?
The vast majority of people interested in the fairphone have "a different standard"..
Ok, great, you have an opinion. An opinion I can completely understand. What does it have to do with this post though?
It wasn't. But it's not 2017 anymore..
Of course they did, why else would they do it, they are a company.
I will criticize whoever I want because it's fucking annoying to have the self-rightous jack defenders pretend martyrers proudly proclaim that they will sacrifice themself and not buy the newest fairphone because "fairphone went against community demands" and act as if they are the majority and represent the views of "the community" IN 2023..
They don't.. Most people in the fairphone community didn't care about the jack back when it was removed.. Most members of the community preferred a slimmer phone to a headphone jack back when the last fairphone was released. And despite of this, you still had some loud-mouths who acted as if their opinions alone represent "the community", ignored all the discussion in the community and claimed that fairphone acted against community interest.
And as "a member of the fairphone community", I didn't say anything, like most who don't care about the jack, because I don't care about the jack, I care about being able to change parts, I care about it lasting for many years and I care about it being small enough to fit in my pocket comfortably.
That was years ago, back when the fairphone decided to do this. And now, the upcoming model doesn't bring it back (to the surprise of virtually nobody) and you have the same wannabe martyrers saying stuff like "just bring it back, how hard can it be, the community demands it".. No, the community doesn't demand it.. The community demands a modular and long lasting phone that is slim and cheap at the same time..
Do whatever pointless posturing you want, just don't act as if you are in the majority or represent all of a community when you don't..
Devil's Advocate as I agree with you, but feel this point should be covered:
Why not make a headphone jack module? If the phone is so easy to repair, then it should be pretty modular, so giving a choice (and probably making it one of the most expensive modules because the demand is DEFINITELY not going to be there to make it cheap through numbers) could not hurt and only help the FairPhone, right?
Again, Devil's advocate, I already know a few potential arguments, but I feel like it was a point being ignored that should be covered
What I mean that you're only point is "you're not the majority so shut up". You're confusing this with some zero-sum game. Me having a mini jack in the phone doesn't mean that you, a person that doesn't care about one, is somehow disadvantaged. There still are flagship phones with mini jacks. Those phones are not bigger or more expensive. You agreed already that Apple didn't remove the mini jack to make the phone smaller, it was just to make more money. It's the same 7 years later, people still don't believe it's for any other reason than to make a little bit more money. Ok, so you're a docile consumer. When company does something you don't like you just say 'well, I'm in the minority, I will still just buy it without complaining". That's ok, do you. It's just weird you're so annoyed with people who do complain, especially on lemmy. Linux has ~3% market share. I guess we should just stop complaining when companies don't support it, majority of people don't care. Most people don't care about privacy, they care about cheap and easy products, let's stop complaining about Google and Meta tracking everyone. And obviously no one here represents any community. People just express their opinions.
My only point is "you're not the majority", you don't even need to shut up, you can have whatever opinion you want to have, just don't pretend to represent "the community" when you don't..
It's an additional port that needs to be included into the design and that needs physical space. And it's another way to get dust and/or fluids into the phone, all without any benefit for me or most users.. You can claim that the impact is minimal, but there still is an unnecessary impact.
Everything apple does and other companies do is to make more money, that's pretty much the entire motivation behind anything companies do..
Of course it is to "make more money", or rather to save money on things that have no measurable benefit for most users..
No, when a company does something I don't like or that is a dealbreaker for me, I don't buy the product..
People can complain about whatever they want. What is annoying to me is when people say stuff like "the community has been requesting this for a couple years ago now so why not." or "adding a little headphone jack shouldn’t be that hard" when this debate has been settled years ago already..
Again, you can complain all you want. But if somebody made a post saying "Google is still using, selling and tracking user data. The community has been requesting that they stop doing that years ago, so why do they still do it? They only do it to make money. Just stop doing it, shouldn't be too hard.", it would in my opinion be a ridiculous and pointless post..
Ok, I agree, the OP was wrong to pretend that he represents the community. So we agree that removing mini jack made the product worse for a lot of people, those people have the right no to buy this product, they have the right to complain, they just shouldn't not do it in the name of the entire community. Let's call it a day.