Source: Piketty's World Inequality Report 2022
I shared this deep in a dunk thread earlier and figured there's probably many comrades who haven't seen this data. I think it's very good rhetorically because a lot of libs have an incredibly vibes-based impression that the Soviet Union was just an Animal Farm old-boss-same-as-the-new-boss situation.
Instead, this demonstrates that Russia underwent one of the most dramatic inversions of income inequality of any country in recorded history.
For comparison here is the US over the same time period:
China:
And the UK:
There are texts out there which Mao wrote, which I wish I could find, where he sounds just like Deng. China is different from the USSR for many reasons, one of which is that the Bolsheviks rapidly gained power over a vast region while the CPC governed various regions of China for decades before winning the civil war. Both before and after that victory they constantly had to deal with the issue of how you build up the productive forces when you have almost nothing to begin with WITHOUT betraying the revolution. China’s current policy is basically the USSR’s NEP on steroids, and is anyone here going to argue that the NEP was not socialist?
I’ve also been thinking of something Deng said—how a market is socialist if socialists control it and capitalist if capitalists control it. This might seem ridiculous at first glance, but would any Marxist call an ancient Roman slave market capitalist? It really is something qualitatively different, even if it is still horrifying and exploitative.
It seems like many of the revolutions have been betrayed after the USSR failed. Perhaps it was not intentional. But the USSR was the power house behind most socialist countries, including the AES ones. After that, they were all forced to open up and allow this disparity to happen or turn into dust. From anecdotes I’ve read and heard from people living in China and Vietnam, as well as state media and private media, most people do not think about communism - the ideology, rather they support communism - the nationalist identity. They care more about getting MBAs or immigrating to the US and getting lucrative jobs. Again, this isn’t to blame the people. They must eat and survive in their world even if the government is officially communist. It’s not unique to these countries of course, and Cuba and NK are too closed off to say anything about them.
I believe China criticized the USSR of historical nihilism after all the denunciations by post Stalin leaders as well as the continual capitalist expansion. While China keeps its self criticism modest, even Jiang Zemin said China was engaging in historical nihilism by allowing so much capitalist and liberal influences, and IIRC he was one of the major forces of capitalist expansion besides Deng
If this were the case, AES states would have stopped calling themselves socialist and then they would have subordinated themselves to the imperial core a long time ago. The USA would not be thirsting for Chinese blood if China were an ally of imperialism.
Furthermore,
“The highroad of history is not a sidewalk of the Nevsky Prospect. It passes all the way through open fields, at times it cuts across marshes or forests. Those who are afraid of soiling their hands had better keep away from politics."
https://redsails.org/compromise-and-sacrifice/
I’ve also spoken with Chinese people living in China about whether China is socialist or not. Every one I’ve spoken with thinks the question is absurd. Just to take one example, they all learn Marxism in school and have easy access to Marxist texts in their libraries. If the government were revisionist, why would it expose all of its people repeatedly to radical texts? Certainly there are gusanos in China who are eagerly fleeing to America so they can get murdered by lynch mobs, but the vast majority of people there approve of the CPC.
When capitalism began, it was forced to use the feudal tools at hand (such as century-long fixed rate rents) to build itself up and destroy feudalism. Socialism is no different. China is building its productive forces while getting many capitalists to eat out of its hand. Once the BRI and the BRICS have built up an alternative world economy that no longer requires the participation of the USA (and once they can be certain that the USA will not respond to this by launching all its nukes), they will move on to the next stage of socialist development. If they press the communism button now in such a hostile environment, they will lose everything.
Yeah, no amount of red sails articles will change my mind. It’s the end of history, but it’s not going to be a happy, celebratory era like libs envision. Maybe you have hope, but I see my families and people barely scraping by, living in houses with primitive plumbing and succumbing to natural disasters without a hint of government intervening in what is supposed to be a communist country. Resources are scarce, I get it, and many people’s lives have been improved including my own family’s, but I see nothing improving past basic dignity and resource any time soon unless the world descends into another legitimate Cold War where stricter lines are drawn. Like I said in another comment, the world has turned to shit after 1991. It’s all about survival now
Im aware of that, which is why I said that AES have to compromise in order to survive. Whether communists are morally reprehensible for this is not for me to decide - for many accepting the west and exploitation was the only way to not fall along the USSR. There is no unifying ideology, except hating the west, which is certainly fine, but im not expecting Saudi Arabia to become threatened by socialism any time soon, for anybody to help Cuba and the DPRK out of poverty and isolation, or even China and Vietnam mending differences. It’s the era of realpolitik.
Okay, I didn’t know I was talking with someone who has family in China and who might even be living there now, so I'm sorry if my tone was less than polite. I've spent a lot of time writing this response so please feel free to correct anything I've written here.
Your own questions kind of bothered me last night and I spent some time looking into the issue of state capitalism. I did end up finding a brief note by Mao, where he describes China in 1953, but sounds like he's describing it in 2023. The idea of state capitalism goes back to Lenin and even Engels, who called it the final stage of capitalism. Basically, once the bourgeoisie is no longer in control of capitalism—capitalism having become a public rather than private affair, with the state taking control of public utilities and then entire industries—it becomes possible to build a classless society. The bourgeoisie no longer needs to exist, which means that the proletariat no longer needs to exist, since each is defined by the other. The issue that it seems Marx and Engels didn't consider was the possibility that socialism would begin outside the imperial core, one country at a time, rather than the imperial core turning socialist first. I'm not sure it's possible for socialism to happen so long as imperialism still exists. The question people keep asking is: is China socialist? When the real question may be: is the world socialist?
Right now the choice for China seems to be: allow the West to turn China into Iraq, or keep doing state capitalism. I suppose China might be allowed to turn into Japan, in the best-case scenario, where its development is frozen indefinitely, and huge amounts of China's taxes go toward propping up the American war machine. As far as I can tell, China is betting on the BRICS and the BRI (as well as technological development) freeing it from America's grip. I also looked into some liberal criticism of China yesterday and saw them complaining about how China's rate of economic growth is slowing down and how the real estate market there is in trouble, and when I saw that Evergrande owes hundreds of billions of dollars (some to China's banks, some to foreign investors), I did start to wonder what the plan is here. I'm confused also about how there is seemingly a lot of property speculation while 90% of Chinese people own their own homes. (To his credit, Xi did recently say that homes are for use, not speculation.)
I'm aware that things aren't perfect in China, and it does look to me like the bourgeoisie is superfluous. I also saw a critique by Richard Wolff, who basically said that China needs more democracy in the workplace. In talking with Chinese people, it sounds like workplaces there aren't too different in their basic setup from workplaces here in the USA, the difference being a stronger social safety net, a total lack of inflation, and the looming threat of the CPC over the boss's heads. So if China adopted Wolff's methods (which I think most of us would define as socialism), my guess is that workers would opt to work less, and to focus on satisfying immediate material needs rather than producing commodities for export (correct me if I'm wrong obviously). In the short run this would probably produce a great deal of happiness, but in the long run wouldn't it lead to weakening China? Fewer exports means less money coming in, which means you can't import things, and you can't keep up with Western technology or even Western ideology, which increases the possibility that the West will destroy you. The market, as terrible and inefficient as it is, does prod huge numbers of people into performing the admittedly unpleasant task of keeping up with the West and even, as seems to be the case now, surpassing it. Perhaps in the future it can be destroyed, but for the moment it might be necessary.
At the same time, China's rate of economic growth was also slowing down when Mao was getting older, I think during the stagflation crisis in the West that gave us neoliberalism. In China, Deng did Dengism to fix this problem. Now the rate of economic growth is slowing down again (even if China's economy is still growing roughly ten times faster than the USA's). There must be people in the CPC wondering if state capitalism has taken China as far as it can go. Once it reaches a certain level of development, dangerous boom-and-bust cycles appear to be inevitable.
My question is, what is China supposed to do? If you were in control, what would you do differently?
I also have some questions about China's covid response. Some British research firm recently published a report saying that when China abandoned zero covid, two million people there died. I looked into their methodology, and said that they found this number basically by extrapolating from Baidu searches, an Adrian Zenz-like approach. Does this number seem realistic? We've lost huge numbers of people in places like the USA and India, and during particularly bad periods it became quite difficult for these two countries to hide the bodies. I saw no footage from China—aside from some weird and very suspect tiktok videos (as well as private funerals)—showing what I saw from India or the USA. If there were two million excess deaths, where are the bodies?
I ask because I live in the USA but have been very close to moving to China for months now. My life is probably as good as it can be for someone living here, but I can't stand the liberalism any longer (even if I know that liberalism also exists in China). I have kids, and also just think that they would have safer, better lives there. My spouse is the only thing really holding me back. She's Korean (I lived in South Korea for years), and is pretty hostile to China. What do you think? Should I stay here, or should I go? I know it's not necessarily your job to advise me on my family life but I'm still curious about your opinion.