this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2023
77 points (100.0% liked)
chapotraphouse
13535 readers
57 users here now
Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.
No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer
Gossip posts go in c/gossip. Don't post low-hanging fruit here after it gets removed from c/gossip
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Art, especially cartooning, is founded on abstraction. The majority of details are discarded, only a small few remain. What details are or are not included is one of the most fundamental elements of interpreting a cartoon as a piece of art. Russia, as always, is the easiest example here. Look at what details on the clothing are maintained: The crease in the cleavage, the creases along the pelvis leading into the legs. Of all the details on the surface of the clothing, most others are discarded and these make up around three quarters of the total detail that remains.
Significantly, most of the characterization comes from a confluence of many little details, but to list these is to invite some disingenuous radlib to pick one out and say "Oh, so she's sexualized because she is turning her hips? Puritan!" as though that is what I'm saying. Instead I will ask: Why do all of them have large chests for their weight? Why do all of them [except SA, who is ambiguous due to her arm] have narrow waists? It's because these are fucking waifus, meant to be viewed as objects, not as people. It's wild how radlibs struggle to do anything but media criticism and yet suck so fucking much at media criticism.
Are y'all seeing a different picture than me? It's incredibly bizzare to me that anyone could look at this and come away with that. Especially, like, India's over there with a full length skirt, average proportions, and a conservative neckline. Can't for the life of me understand what the deal is.
I'm sorry but y'all are being extremely weird about this.
It's interesting that radlibs can sound just like the fuckers who defend skullgirls. I never said shit about how any of them are actually dressed, only about how their clothing is drawn, but just like you so readily misunderstand this as though I was reacting to a picture of actual women rather than drawings, when I discuss how the clothes are drawn, you talk about this. If these were real women doing some "Women of BRICS" thing for some bizarre reason, I would have nothing that I wanted to say about it because there would be no point. Hell, if it turned out that these are semi-accurate drawings of actual people who have some reason to be picked as models beyond nationality and marketability [e.g. that they were "Miss Brazil," etc.], I wouldn't want to say anything. This is not the case, it's just horny posting, and it's telling that half the replies I got the first time were obtuse ones like this and the other half were "actually the artist is a lesbian [and maybe trans? idr] so actually you are attacking the sexual expression of a minority who already frequently has their sexuality attacked". The premises are different but the conclusion is the same, and these two camps don't dispute each other. Really makes you think
It's PG-13 polandball hooters. I don't give a shit if you like your slop like that, but a trough is a trough.
Christ. I don't know what I can say to make you realize how much of creep you're being about this. It's incredibly weird and alienating. I guess I'll just go line by line.
Do you also find it "interesting" how perverts and leftists both oppose forcing women to wear burqas?
Obviously the way they're dressed is relevant, and if they were dressed less conservatively, you'd 100% use that as evidence for your position. You don't get to write that off on the basis that you didn't mention it, you didn't mention it for a reason.
Nowhere did I do this, this is an outright lie.
Oh my god! It's almost like two people can arrive at the same conclusion for different reasons! And both lines of reasoning are correct. It's both less horny than you creeps are making it out to be, and even if it were that horny it wouldn't be that bad. Either way, your nonsense is by far the bigger issue that needs to be addressed.
Honestly I'm not even going to try reasoning anymore because this shit where you project your own horniness onto a perfectly ordinary drawing is both really gross and pretty offensive. You are being far more sexist and objectifying than this art ever was.
Here's your PPB
Seriously go fuck yourself. What I'm talking about is the bad faith bullshitting about "this isn't objectifying" by pretending that they don't have the most basic media literacy. Your comment right here is actually the most perfect example! I never said a single thing about the attire of actual women. I am talking about a drawing! (I'm also not even talking about the wardrobe in the drawing, but that's too difficult a concept so we will set it aside).
There is a profound difference between how a woman expresses herself with the clothes she wears on her own body versus how someone draws imaginary characters. Equivocating between disliking waifus and insisting on burqas is the most
- tier rhetorical bullshit imaginable. These aren't real women in the real world, how does this need to be explained?
Not only was it not a lie, you demonstrated that exact point again in the part I previously quoted by again conflating the politics of personal presentation vs art of fictional characters.
I'm not complaining about something that is a complete non-issue. If it was an issue, perhaps I would complain about it, but the people characterizing my argument as though this non-issue was my issue are mistaken.
I think the more liberal attire is suitable for the USA waifu just like Eliza's costume in Skullgirls suits her character (for mostly-different reasons). There are other waifus for whom it would be more gross, as there are Skullgirls characters for whom it is very gross (though these reasons only partially overlap).
I never said you said anything about actual women! You're lying again.
What I said is that two people can both oppose your puritanical bullshit for different reasons, and I used a real life analogy to illustrate that point.
So you can dissect every piece of art and if you find one single element that you consider horny, the rest of the drawing is completely irrelevant? What fucking bullshit standard is that? Completely unreasonable.
You go fuck yourself
The question of restricting dress in real life and criticism of fictional characters are wildly different. I never said you said I am talking about real women, I said you are conflating these two subjects, which you continue to do. Pin-up girls (such as are painted on bomber jets or whatever) are typically not feminist, and indeed are typically misogynist. Forbidding women from dressing the way pin-up girls do in that art would also be not feminist, and indeed is typically misogynist. This is not a contradiction. I have no problem with women dressing as they want, and I also think the way women are portrayed in media should be scrutinized because of deeply-embedded cultural sexism.
"Why would a communist have tolerance for some kind of 'ruthless criticism of all that exists'?!?"
More seriously, there is a difference between diegetic and non-diegetic sexualization*. The central point I made in my original comment is about non-diegetic sexualization, through the process of choosing which details to remove and which not to in the highly abstract medium of cartooning. Choice of dress would be a diegetic method of sexualizing the character which would much more strongly suggest the characters trying to appear sexually attractive, which I think would make the art more overtly creepy, but that's not the only thing that can possibly be criticized and not especially worth mentioning in the line of criticism that I took (though I humored it with the aside about the US waifu).
*If a decent feminist with media criticism abilities (so not you) would like to contend that sexualization is necessarily non-diegetic and I am therefore talking about sexualizing via character writing vs audience perspective, that's fine.
Do you understand what analogy is? The point I was making is that you can't write off criticism just because someone bad makes a similar criticism. You're being deliberately obtuse just to accuse me of shit.
Sorry I just find it really comedic how you put those two so close together
At that point you probably shouldn't have made the comparison with an incomparable situation about how real women dress and instead just talked about how both racists and communists hate Kamala Harris or something. As it is, the radlib argument and the skullgirl closet-incel argument are basically "the curtains are blue!" "you are basically policing how women present," and the much-beloved classic "it's all in your head".
Did you not see the US waifu? She would have honestly been the best line you had at an actual attempt at refutation instead of just calling me a creep and a liar over and over.
Why shouldn't I say what's true?
There's a block button if you have nothing to say
Oh but I do:
Fuck off creep.
If this is just a last word thing, I can stop. You don't seem to be offering arguments anymore.
Then do it lol.
My argument is that when you look at a ordinary picture of cartoon women and immediately start calling them waifus and talking about their faces being covered in cum and analyzing every detail like they're a slab of meat, the fact that you're trying to position yourself as "anti-horny" and "feminist" doesn't make it true and doesn't make you one bit less of a creep. You're literally posting hornier things than anyone else on the site.
Fuck off before you scare away people who are actually cool and worth welcoming.
He should've just say that waifuing countries is cringe and left it at that instead of meticulously analyzing the breast size of some drawing.
Seriously this did devolve into hyper-analyzing the posture and hip measurements of some cartoon women in shorts.
It's so much worse than anything the hornyposters have said to the point that I'm about willing to offer critical support to them in their struggle against this creep.