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Globalized trade is good actually
Globalized trade has been a thing long before neo-liberalism existed, arguably longer than capitalism has existed. Equating neo-liberalism with "global/globalized trade" is incredibly reductive..
EDIT: I read the comment wrong, OP is saying that international/global trade is not inherently bad, not that neo-liberalism is the same thing as international/global trade.
I didn't see that comment as reductive. More like pointing out a part of neo-liberalism that the commenter thought was good.
In other words, the comment is simply "globalized economy is good." The comment is not what you're inferring: "neo-liberalism is good because globalized economy is good "
Yes this is actually what I meant.
I do not subscribe to neoliberal economics- if anything I'm just left of the average Keynesian.
Thank you for clearifying, I have misinterpreted your comment in that case.
I love how civil everyone is being! And I appreciate that you edited your earlier comment.
heck u
I'm Georgist, and I agree with you that global trade is good. Why would we purposely do to ourselves what we do to our adversaries during wartime? One certainly doesn't have to subscribe to all of neoliberalism to believe global trade is good.
Yep, the best way to prevent rich powerful assholes from getting us into huge wars is to make it extremely unprofitable. Don't want to kill your market or labor force. Don't want to disrupt your supply chain. Etc.
Literally the Ukraine war is an excellent example of this. Second most powerful army in the world fighting a much smaller and poorly equipped army. Now only the second most powerful army in Russia.
Yes.
Pushing every poor country to invest on the same export industries because your ideology believes they are inferior people that can only ever do that, or because you want them to subsidize your local consumers of those industries is not a good thing.
But people can't handle any complexity, and this get turned into "advocated global trading".
On the whole, for sure. But that doesn't make it any more palatable for workers when jobs are relocated from their area.
Or the workers in the nation where the work is moved, and since companies are min-maxing their profits with no regulation, you have factories with suicide nets
Right, but that's less of a consequence of Globalization and more of a consequence of our national economy being structured in a way that offsets risk onto the most vulnerable working class folks. If we had universal healthcare not reliant on employment, reskilling assistance, and some kind of basic income, it would be easier to both protect people and reap the benefits of Globalization.
i.e. neoliberalism
Internationalism is good. Globalism is not. All globalism means is open borders for capital and hard borders for workers.
Globalism when used by like 95% of people includes dropping immigration restrictions, so I'm not sure what you're on about here.
Not really. They emphasize "legal" immigration, by which they mean a series of restrictions on how people are allowed to enter the country and what qualifies them to become citizens. The actual implementation of neoliberal policies always includes strict border controls, limited asylum seeking, 2nd class citizenship for migrants, and harsh penalties for migrating "wrong" and not jumping through all the legal and financial hoops.
Capital moving freely while migrants die in the Mojave and drown in the Mediterranean.
Again, 95% of people who use the term "globalist" to describe someone else associate it with open borders. I'm not sure what you're on about here.
When you're talking about neoliberalism, 'globalism' also has a lot to do with trade and international finance- from the 1940s (after fallout of the great depression and the World Wars) Keynesian economics was 'in', and international lending agreements upheld countries' ability to conduct nation-level managed/mixed economies- but when the neoliberals swung into power, the new order of the day was to strip countries of their self-managing ability in ways that made them accessible to/exploitable by global conglomerates and corporations:
So, in this sense, 'globalization' not just the opening of borders for labor and immigration, it is the swing away from 'nationalization' of economies and of national economic sovereignty, to prevent countries from impeding the flow of capital (and corporate power) into and out of their borders on behalf of global finance and colonial power
"National economic sovereignty" meaning what, exactly?
It's the notion that by being a country you should be able to make and enforce your own economic policies for the benefit of your citizenry instead of, for example, for the benefit of outside capital.
In reality, the right of countries to do basic things like enforce their own labor regulations and put limits on outside capital's access to their resources (or to publicly own resources) has been deeply infringed upon if not outright violated; look at how United Fruit basically toppled governments that put worker's rights or land ownership rules at odds with company profits.
The rest of this conversation talks a lot about 'globalism', I brought up 'national economic sovereignty' to distinguish economic self-rule from the kind of globalized rule that turned countries into banana republics, essentially ruled by puppets on behalf of foreign corporate interests.
Do you think the economic sovereignty of a fascist dictatorship that expropriates property by ethnicity ought to be recognized? Note that I'm not asking if you're for supporting fascists, because you can be openly belligerent against a nation who you nonetheless recognize as sovereign over their economy.
If not, I'm interested to hear your standards for what economic sovereignty should be respected.
I think that 'economic sovereignty' as such is a value-neutral proposition; it can be done for good or ill. I consider it like anything else in the toolbox; a chainsaw can be helpful or terrifying, depending on who has it and what they decide to do with it. Is a federated republic a good or bad thing because some of the people with power in it might be fascists? I think those are separable notions; in my view, sovereignty and federation are useful for what they get you- for example they are means of checking power located elsewhere.
Since you're asking my views on supporting fascism, that's a hard 'no' from me and if you're trying to guess from my use of 'nationalism' and its buzzwordy association with fascists that I'm trying to carve out a toehold to legitimize fascism under the aegis of nationalism, you're reading between the lines for something I'm not arguing.
Are you suggesting that Guatemala or any of the other Banana republics were fascist dictatorships for expropriating land? If so, I have opinions about the US toppling democracies in Latin America and calling *them *fascist or racist along the way to justify it- not only is it the pot calling the kettle black, it's the opposite of what happened.
I'm referring to contemporary arguments about whether trade agreements with countries which had previously been Russian or Chinese client states are "imperialism"
People who describe themselves as globalists generally reject the idea of open borders. Labor visas, not the free movement of labor.
What you're talking about is a smear, not reality.
I describe myself as a globalist and I explicitly believe in open borders. I'm not sure what you're on about here.
I think it's pretty clear "what I'm on about." I've explained it pretty thoroughly, even if you keep just repeating yourself.
What are you on about?
Do you believe in the concept of citizenship, with different legal rules for citizens vs noncitizens?
I think pragmatically you need to have some basis for taxing a subset of people, and thus those people will have to be "citizens" subject to certain different rules- but most privileges and duties should apply to residents irrespective of their citizenship status. That's basically how US state borders work and those borders are considered "open" even though there is a concept of state citizenship.
As long as states exist, citizenship has to exist, but that doesn't mean we should regulate who can enter, live, and work in our country on the basis of origin, social class, or other things that aren't like "is this person entering to escape from a crime in their country that we would have punished" or "is this person entering to start a fascist uprising" etc.
Living within the US, I don't need to apply for citizenship every time I move to a different state. The law applies to me equally even if I only just crossed the border for lunch, and the only special rules are related to residency; as long as I live in a state I count as a resident, I can vote and send my kids to school and have to pay taxes etc.
That is what open borders actually looks like. That is what the free movement of labor means. Residency, not citizenship.
Globalists do not want this. They need hard borders and citizenship to control the movement of labor. Work visas can be revoked, are tied to a place of employment, and are temporary. Perfect labor units for neoliberal capitalism.
That's basically what US citizenship looked like at the outset of America- until the Immigration Act was passed, you sent a letter to your local Justice of the Peace declaring your intent to remain in America and that commemorated your citizenship.
As previously stated, I am a globalist and I agree with open borders.
Downplay your views on student loans
Surely you remember citizenship wasn't available to everyone back then.
What does that have to do with anything?
Cough.....student loans...cough
What does that have to do with globalism?
Why are you deflecting?
Deflecting is when you bring up something totally irrelevant to the subject matter. Nobody asked my opinion on student loans in this thread, and it's not germaine to globalism.
I have repeatedly asked you. I am asking again right here right now.
Much more than globalized trade, globalized sharing of knowledge, awareness and circumstance - perhaps even globalized power, one day. The fight against capitalism will definitely require a great plan to take global communication away from private capital.
Student loans debt slavery is bad actually.
Neoliberals hate when this is brought up.
And cheese is made of cow's milk. Non sequiturs are fun!
Yes which is why you made one just now.
Criticism of the economic policies of a group that is focused on economic policy is appropriate.
Sorry your bff's like student loans debt