I'll absolutely agree that NATO countries are dishonest about their geopolitical opponents. I would also say those opponents are dishonest about NATO countries. I don't think that's at all far fetched. It bothers me that it seems to come off controversial around here.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, yeah, but as westerners we can't do anything about how Russian or Chinese people react to their governments' messaging, we can only make sure to defeat imperialist narratives in our own spheres. Sometimes downplaying the negative aspects about other countries, especially the negative aspects that our own nations use for propaganda, is a good rhetorical tactic to keep the focus on what we can do to make positive change happen and not fall for the narratives that are directed at us.

[–] Doug@midwest.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't agree but I can respect your position.

What about when we get first hand accounts from trusted sources in regards to the state of life in those countries. Would you ignore them to continue keeping focus or acknowledge them?

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, how can acknowledging them help foster an internationalist working class? If there's a way to promote solidarity based on first hand accounts, sure why not, but if there isn't it's neither here nor there.

For example let's say we get some accounts from China. If the people of China are prospering, I can agitate and say that a better world is possible, just look at China, and at the same time it's a good argument against intervening in China. If things are bad in China, depending on the reasons, I could either analyze how their policies could have been different and save that criticism for when it's time to build a new socialist experiment, so we can learn from the mistakes of history. If the reasons stem from Western economic policies, then I can agitate by saying that our outdated system is harming millions of people. What I would never do, is shout from the rooftops that life in China is horrible, or worse than here, because that drives down morale and it makes people more likely to be complacent and fall for false consciousness or end-of-historyism. The main point is, as socialists, we should agree on supporting no war but the class war, and as proles we should be agitating, educating, and organizing; we should not be imperialist lap dogs and do the State Department's job for them.

Maybe the source of the disagreement here is that you could see discourse and political discussion as an endeavor that should be illuminating and pursue truth. I think there's value to that, but not in discourse, I save the truth seeking for when I read calmly and have the time to look for definitions/relevant historical facts. To me, the point of public discourse and political discussion is to exert class power and advance the position of the working class, heighten the contradictions when reasonable, and in even the smallest way to set the stage for a progressive change toward the next stage of history i.e. revolution. That can also involve dispelling some of the fictions of capitalist ideology, it can involve rhetoric, appealing to people's material situation, etc.

[–] Doug@midwest.social 2 points 1 year ago

I can agree with your assessment. I absolutely understand the value of, shall we call it directed truth?

Maybe some of it is hope that people will be willing and able to see and accept the whole truth of a situation. Some things are better for group a and some for group b. If we work together we can find the best of both.

I suspect you don't have that same hope. I could absolutely understand that and maybe even consider you the better off of the two of us for that specific circumstance.