this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2023
251 points (99.2% liked)
chapotraphouse
13535 readers
57 users here now
Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.
No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer
Gossip posts go in c/gossip. Don't post low-hanging fruit here after it gets removed from c/gossip
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I would disagree that liberalism has "extremely limited" appeal. Many people are perfectly happy with the mediocrity offered by liberalism, and that's one of the major challenges, that so many people prefer it over radical change of any kind.
Liberalism: acceptable to many, desirable to few.
I personally take it less as people finding liberalism appealing, and more that real change is scary and entails the possibility of suffering and death.
Bingo! There's been police homicide and torture cases after 2020 and I don't totally buy the Ray Epps narrative from the press. I sometimes wonder if the capitol riot was a way to try to keep the largescale 2020 protests from happening as the cops still commit murder. Make no mistake, the unrest following Floyd was bigger than the unrest following MLK. It went global.
Edited
I mean it's boosted by the fact that it's the dominant ideology and permeates everything. for most people, it's existed without question their entire lives. so I'm not sure how happy people will be with it when they're offered a real alternative, even among people who objectively benefit from it.
Yeah the benefit of being the default is huge. Incumbency bias is strong, and liberalism doesn't bad enough at first to most people, so they assume its fine. You either have to be curious about the truth, or get fucked over by the system to really start to question it. It exists in a state of not so bad that people hate it, but clearly not the best, so people just go along with it as it is easiest to do so.
It just needs to fuck you good once and there's no going back. I had to take my dad in for over 2 years while he slowly died and I had zero help. He had no other family and couldnt afford elder care so and I was stuck changing his piss bags, giving him enemas, feeding him baby food and the only thing anyone offered me was pity.
Fuck this system. Fuck anyone who defends it.
yep, as long as it's the ideology in schools and media, it's going to retain that position. the cracks are beginning to show, however. I think neoliberalism is really only the ideology of a few people (who admittedly have significant power) and we're living through a rebirth of liberalism into a backwards looking ideology that craves its former power and glory. this new ideology is typified by blue MAGA -- a reactionary sentiment echoed back when Trump was in office "everything would be fine if only Obama were president". different groups pick different dates for when they want to turn the clock back to, but it's overall a reactionary ideology.
I think the only people to whom liberalism really appeals to are those who are entirely disengaged. I think anybody who becomes active immediately begins to discover liberalism's inherent contradictions, and finds themselves faced with the reality of either becoming some variety of fascist or socialist, depending on what their true values are.
I would disagree that liberalism only appeals to people who are entirely disengaged.
There are so many passionate and obsessed liberals. People who do canvassing, go to peaceful protests (while criticizing protests that are too disruptive), DVR MSNBC shows, listen to Pod Save guys, etc.
Oh yeah.... I once had an argument with a Bernie supporter who wanted a Domestic Terrorist Alert List. The argument got heated and I wasn't really for gun control if the police are still armed.
She called the cops to my fucking apartment.
Have you noticed these types are usually either children who haven't yet experienced life or retirees whose working life might as well have been in a different universe? Or they are just rich?
Those canvassing/protesting positions are fairly good opportunities for those seeking to push obsessed liberals toward the left libertarian end of things. A few poignant questions and a “based on that, you might be an anarchist” can be powerful.
That’s how I was prompted to dig deeper, and end up with a more “radical” descriptor. One conversation while canvassing to open the door. Prior I would have described myself as liberal because I didn’t know a while lot about other options, but my actual views didn’t change much at all.
there's a kind of desperation in the way a lot of libs cling to their ideology though, a sense that it must hold or unknown terrors will consume them. I don't think it's particularly stable, especially if a real worker's party were to offer a clear alternative.
"Better the devil you know than the devil you don't"
I suppose, but I was increasingly frustrated by the way democrats endlessly kowtowed to republicans and how they got nothing, absolutely nothing in return for it. I thought it was just an issue with “corporate democrats” at first, until I witnessed Bernie and AOC’s total capitulation in 2020 and began to understand that this country’s problems go way deeper than fucking campaign contributions. R/chapotraphouse really helped provide answers for my questions, namely reading Marxist theory and history (and responding to fascists and liberals with pigpoopballs).
For me, it was when Bernie campaigned harder for Hillary than she had campaigned for Obama, and then also how "Bernie Bros" were blamed for her ensuing loss to a human cheeto.