So what you are saying is that you suddenly aren't interested in data? Because I was really looking forward to comparing stuff like rural educational attainment, PPP, various human development indices, freedom, democracy indices. There's like a bunch of stuff which basically backs up what is plainly visible to anyone - that the west has been raising people out of poverty for 200 and is still doing a pretty decent job of it.

Look, we all know that western liberalism has a lot of really fucking dumb shit about it in the current iteration. And I will definitely acknowledge that there are a lot of good ideas in China. China's economic miracle is laudable, but - and I say this as a person with an actual stake in Chinese society - it's time for China to do better, and China doesn't get better when delusional tankies defend it's many clear and obvious problems.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So what you are saying is that you suddenly aren’t interested in data?

You mean data such as this? https://www.businessinsider.com/typical-chinese-adult-now-richer-than-europeans-wealth-report-finds-2022-9

that the west has been raising people out of poverty for 200 years and is still doing a pretty decent job of it.

That's a false statement:

If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.

The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.

Western liberalism has resulted in some of the worst crimes against humanity in the past 200 years such as the slave trade and the genocide of the native population in America to name a couple.

Look, we all know that western liberalism has a lot of really fucking dumb shit about it in the current iteration. And I will definitely acknowledge that there are a lot of good ideas in China. China’s economic miracle is laudable, but - and I say this as a person with an actual stake in Chinese society - it’s time for China to do better, and China doesn’t get better when delusional tankies defend its many clear and obvious problems.

Nobody said China couldn't and shouldn't do better or that China doesn't have problems. This is literally the case for every human society. However, what's being argued is that China is demonstrably producing better material outcomes than western liberal democracies are.

[–] socsa@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Again, compared to the west, China is still a poor country. Yes it is growing, and that growth has been very impressive, and there is much we can all learn from it. But to claim that China has surpassed the west in terms of eliminating poverty is simply incorrect.

You are making a moral argument, to which I am marginally sympathetic, and backing it up with bad information.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The numbers say that people in China are now better off than people in Europe. And this is with China having to rebuild itself after a civil war and the destruction in WW2. Meanwhile, the reason the west is rich is because the west colonized the rest of humanity and has been brutally exploiting it. Claiming that the west is rich because of liberalism is factually wrong. The west is rich because it enslaved billions of people across the globe plundering their labour and resources.

You are making a moral argument, to which I am marginally sympathetic, and backing it up with bad information.

What specifically is the bad information you're referring to. I've provided you with the actual numbers here.

[–] socsa@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So far you have provided a survey about government satisfaction. When presented with data which shows that China is quite a bit more corrupt than the west, you changed the subject to argue prosperity and wealth.

And on those topics, you are wrong as well. China trails the west considerably on:

Human Development Index:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

GDP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

GDP per Capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Educational Attainment:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment https://www.worldeconomics.com/Indicator-Data/ESG/Social/Mean-Years-of-Schooling/

Access to Indoor Plumbing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proportion_of_the_population_using_improved_sanitation_facilities

Social Mobility:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

Labor productivity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_productivity

Minimum wage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_minimum_wage

We could keep going here. You are very clearly the one who is cherry picking data. Like many people who make these ridiculous claim, you seem to be under the impression that everyone in China lives in tier 1 cities, and ignore things like China's hukou caste system, or the fact that the average rural Chinese person does not even attempt a high school education.

Again, I acknowledge that China has made miraculous advancements in many of these areas, and will likely be on par or even surpass the west in many of these this century. However, you are clearly arguing in bad faith, moving goalposts and ranting about a bunch of things you seem to have quite a poor grasp of.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Again, you Wikipedia is not exactly the most reliable source for these things, and I've provided you with very different numbers from other sources. Pretty much every source that accounts for stuff like PPP shows that China is doing quite well compared to the west. However, you once again ignore the fact that the west had a head start, and that the wealth in the west comes from colonialism. China's growth doesn't come at the cost of impoverishment of other countries the way western growth does. Finally, the really important part is the trajectory. Life in China is improving, life in the west is getting worse.

And claiming that when I'm arguing in bad faith or moving goal posts when I've been consistently saying the same thing and backing up with sources says everything I need to know about you. Bye.

[–] socsa@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I am still waiting to see your sources on any of this tbh

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not sure what you're waiting for given that I've already provided you sources backing everything I said.

[–] socsa@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well then it should be easy for you to consolidate them in one comment.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not going to waste more time on you. It's pretty clear you're just going to keep ignoring everything I say and repeating the same thing like a broken record. You don't want to have an honest discussion here.

[–] socsa@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

On the contrary, I am trying to have a conversation. I have attempted to address every premise you've offered with a combination of history, data and personal experience. I don't believe you have offered sources for many of your claim, but in case I missed them, it would be helpful if you provided a summary.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If you are trying to have a conversation then we're clearly talking past each other. My points are as follows.

We see consistent and steady improvement in the quality of life of people in China. I've provided many sources demonstrating this.
China has a stable economy that does not see constant crashes the way western economies do.
The government of China is working in the interest of the public, and has popular support from the vast majority of people who live in China. This is again supported by the numerous resources I've provided.
The government of China predominantly consists of working class people.
The economy of China is directed towards the interests of the majority, and all the core economy, such as energy production, is publicly owned.
The disparity in wealth with the west comes from the west brutally exploiting the global south to enrich western nations. Despite this, the standards of living in the west continue to decline.
Practically all the improvements in the standard of living have come from China in the past decades, meanwhile the standard of living globally has actually declined.

I have sourced all these claims in this thread.