this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2024
115 points (80.1% liked)
Asklemmy
44151 readers
768 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Those are your words, not mine. You're just telling yourself stories and believing them again.
You clearly do not, you are not interested in investigating this topic whatsoever. You prefer to use requests for evidence to have other people fetch things for you and then use them purely rhetorically.
Decades is not a very long time, per this topic. Refugees in Gaza exist who were kicked from their homes in the nearby area in living memory. If you actually stated your point, though, it might be easier to address it.
So many qualifiers. The Kibbutzim did fire back, it is one of the reasons many were killed in the first place, per first hand accounts. Several articles have been written about Kibbutz Be’eri, presumably to provide the most favorable of narratives, and in dire need of a skeptical lens, but of course these articles tend to mention that the Kibbutz has an armory of M16 rifles that the settlers almost immediately ran to. This is standard in such locations, they are little walled, armed communities. You would know this if you were ever in any way curious about the topic instead of approaching what I say with ignorant contrarianism.
Hardly. My claims re: material basis is about actual settler-colonial bases, both current and historical, and this is an inarguable fact of settler-colonialism: it requires that the settlers feel reasonably safe and secure on their stolen lands. Israeli society makes much of this, they talk about their iron dome often and the necessity, but also success, of their high level of militarization against Palestinians. And when you look to polling, and the politics of Israel, you will find that they are outraged over a loss of status, of an inability to return the hostages, of being forced from the area around Gaza and from Northern Israel, and that in return they want military escalation and death. When the government launches new campaigns, when they bomb residential neighborhoods, their ratings go up.
If you deigned to read and engage with what I had said about this material basis, you would not be saying such silly things.
This sounds like the "deep" thoughts of an high mediocre college freshman. Who knows what your point is. Apparently you think your appeal to your belief in "illogic" is somehow comparable to the decades of settler colonialism and the psychology basis of settlers, long studied and described by the oppressed who wage resistance against them. You seem to think your imaginary vague idea of people "being illogical" is far more reliable analysis than, say, settlers needing to feel secure in their occupation, arming themselves, building up a series of racist oppressions to do so, etc. You have no real response to this, which is why you can barely string these thoughts together.
Again these are your words and then you say it is "more of my faith", lmao. You are deeply confused.
PS the IDF is mostly teenagers and young 20-somethings with inflated titles that fall apart in any real fight. The Zionist press is absolutely chock full of articles about how "the troops" lack capacity due to attrition (casualties and psychologically) and cannot fight in Lebanon.
I actually already mentioned some specific examples of why their doctrine falls apart without constant supplies from the US. If only you had the courage of your convictions to directly address what I had said. Instead you play little games.
These forces can't even push much more than a hair into Lebanon and that is with massive air support.
Israel has never won a war without air power and full support of a major imperialist sponsor, whether it was the British or US. You are simply making things up again.
It occurs to me that you don't know how to use the quote feature of Lemmy. Perhaps you are too proud to ask? It is not always clear what you are responding to.
This question is too vague. An entire government has many objectives addressing different topics. Do you want me to list objectives for you? Or do you have some in mind to make your question more clear?
Every resistance fighter in Palestine knows that the Zionists will respond with incredible cruelty and a massively outsized response. The ratios of killed or wounded are typically 10:1 or more. These decisions are made with full eyes about what it means to provoke and escalate, but it is the same logic as those of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. It is people who see a slow genocide and displacement as guaranteed from the status quo and from all other realistic paths provided. And they set out a plan to disrupt the Zionist entity, to agitate, which will, knowingly, create a disproportionate response, in order to forward their goals of resistance, to undermine Zionist security, to test their own capacity for war, to bleed their enemy through the tactics I have already mentioned.
If you actually cared to learn anything about this topic, you would already know this. They have repeatedly made public statements about this. There is a reason they call their fallen compatriots martyrs. There is a reason they place emphasis on mourning via righteousness and solidarity and not simply despair.
Israel is now well-known to be a genocidal ethnostate, a rogue state. The world stands against them. Again, something you would know if you weren't locked in a box of propaganda. Along with regional allies, Israel is in turmoil and on the brink of falling apart, with its credit ratings tanking every few months. It is a country dependent on finance capitalism, with related industries like tech, and those workers have largely fled. It is attempting to lash out and provoke further war, and it is succeeding only at, yet again, mass killing of civilians without actually addressing the fundamental collapse within.
If you cared about this topic you would already know these things.
It is when you are a 19-year-old Israeli brigadier-general whose CO just got sniped in front of them. They can barely operate without overhwelming air support. This is their war doctrine, it is identical to the Americans'. You would already know this if you cared about this topic.
They only occur after massive civilian bombing campaigns and they routinely lose to guerillas. They declare an area cleared and then resistance fighters pop back up a few days later. Their allegedly new strategy in North Gaza is to begin more thoroughly razing it via bombings because they simply cannot win against the guerillas with their soldiers.
You would already know this if you cared about this topic. One wonders if you will someday acquire shame at this poor behavior.
All of this occurred under conditions of full air support and bombing campaigns. Did you forget what we were talking about? I think so.
Nowhere near enough. They are dependent on US weapons and materials and logistical support.
The ANC, as well as the rest of the tripartite group, was underground for 3 decades during which it made nearly all of its major advances. "Crushed", lmao. Who do you think the apartheid government negotiated with? You know nothing about this topic.
Nobody ever said the ANC was alone. It had quite a substantial amount of support from the Soviets, for example, as well as the Cubans and the Palestinian resistance. You are simply ignorant of the history.
You yourself mentioned "fundamental truths", not me. It's not lies to call you out on it.
You don't know why I ask for them, you've failed to provide a single one. This is likely due to you knowing they're political in nature.
You know my point. Seeing the border kibbutz as armed jailors (and thus combatants) is ludicrous. While arms were certainly present, and local security forces certainly returned fire, a heavily armed, fortified camp would have provided heavy resistance. Instead, the attack swept through them quickly, killing many in their shelters. There is significant video evidence of this.
There you go again with "inarguable fact". No fact is inarguable, that's not how facts work. Proper intellectual rigor allows the challenging of even the most deeply-held belief, otherwise Einsteinian gravity would have never overtaken Newtonian gravity. In your case, you even misapply it, taking a very natural human reaction against security threats to an illogical conclusion that if those security threats escalate to a certain severity, then the Israelis will lose somehow. This makes no sense.
More cute deflections out of you. But no, again, your materialist philosophy does not actually provide for a concrete path to victory. Your long studies on the psychology of settlers is missing a whole bunch of psychology if all you can focus on is material security. Hate, for instance, is an emotion that can be taught generation to generation, and can motivate independently of material conditions.
Do you think 20somethings cannot be trained to be good soldiers? Do you think the IDF is smaller than 400k? Be clear. And no, you did not mentioned specific examples, except to repeat this claim that they "fall apart" in ground combat. That is not a specific example.
Has there been a widespread invasion into Lebanon that faltered? Or are you arguing they are too scared and weak to even try?
In the 1948 war, Israel had no air force. The Arab countries did. They still lost.
Quoting wastes space. I can recall our previous discussion, if you can't it's not hard to scroll back a little. Their goal of ethnic cleansing.
There's still no path to victory described here. Israel does not have the world against them, because genocide just isn't that big a deal across the world. You know India still trades with Israel, and has its navy active in the Red Sea area? Israel's credit rating is still in the A range, it's not being knocked down "every few months". I don't think you should be accusing me of being locked in a box of propaganda when your statements are this exaggerated and untrue.
So, you think Major Generals can frequently be found at checkpoints then...?
Routinely lose to the guerillas where? Using bombardment to prepare for an assault is nothing new, that's pretty standard going back centuries. Losing the ground assault is notable though. Guerillas popping back up is just guerillas fighting a guerilla campaign, I assume you understand how that's supposed to operate, and how it isn't reflecting the IDF being defeated in a pitched battle.
More nitpicking details. Being crushed does not have to mean no longer present. The point remains that the ANC would have never accomplished their goals without international pressure. Had the international community not cared about Apartheid, it would have continued despite ANC resistance, into the foreseeable future.
Actually you did, right here:
otherwise you will be correctly recognized as someone that plays with fairy tales and seems to even believe them!
You could have easily checked this, but I guess you're not putting much effort in.
You brought up materialism several paragraphs up, around 3 posts ago. You seem to want to give credit for expanding freedom movements solely to violent combatants, while saying nonviolent methods are ineffective. This is simplistic. You are ignoring other factors present.
I see, you cannot remember well. Sorry, but if I quote everything too, for your convenience since you are reluctant to reread I suppose, then these replies will simply get longer and longer as yours have. You're now up to two full size comments, all because you are wasting space quoting me when I can fully remember what I said. You don't have to. I won't start.
We were discussing whether American nonviolent protest was a significant factor in ending the war. I said yes, you said no.
Most of the rest of that looks like trolling and more nitpicking pointless details like me saying "hamas" instead of "Palestinian resistance". I suppose your rigid mind might actually lack the flexibility to bridge the two, though. You also seem to blame me for confusion when you cannot remember or reread and thus need me to provide quotes for your convenience.
No, not everyone engages in propaganda. It is possible to analyze factual events without applying value judgements, which are a necessary component of propaganda. We are engaged in a propagandistic discussion, certainly, that's unavoidable I think, but it is not some unavoidable thing.
At this point you are basically uncomprehensible because you aren't using the quote feature and your thoughts are disorganized, providing insufficient context for what point you are trying to make. Plus, I am getting very repetitive because the fundamental problem here is an intransigent combination of arrogance and ignorance - your defensiveness despite clearly knowing virtually nothing abiyt this topic and relying on deflection and invention to resist correction. A curious person would at least go read a bit to see if the things I'm referring to have grounding and develop their own education this way. Unfortunately you are against your own education on this topic and that is not something I can fix on your behalf. The lack of self-reflection to even make yourself comprehensible is an example of this, it has escalated to the point of communication itself being nearly impossible.
If you are at some point interested in a good faith discussion where you acknowledge what you do and do not know and what you will spend time learning, let me know.
Very convenient when you're the one making strong claims with no evidence or sourcing. I suppose I don't really expect you to do anything asides blame someone else for all your problems though. That's much easier.