this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2024
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chapotraphouse

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Is there any flavor of libertarianism that even in theory makes sense? I lump libertarians together which I guess is unfair but I only talk to them online and they always seem to so similar however they define themselves with nuance. I find them to be ridiculous, obnoxious, and selfish.

For example - at Bluesky I just had an argument with a self-described socio-libertarian who was against "disruptive" protests against climate change. The character limit at Bluesky makes an actual discussion pointless in a situation like this. But they were an asshole anyway so that limit did me a favor. And I didn't need to her some kind of fantastical thinking about the magic of the free market solving climate change.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about libertarian socialism...

Libertarian socialism

Libertarian socialism is an anti-authoritarian and anti-capitalist political current that emphasises self-governance and workers' self-management. It is contrasted from other forms of socialism by its rejection of state ownership and from other forms of libertarianism by its rejection of private property. Broadly defined, it includes schools of both anarchism and Marxism, as well as other tendencies that oppose the state and capitalism.

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[–] SubstantialNothingness@hexbear.net 14 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

There are traditional libertarians (i.e. anarchists, anarcho-communists, etc.) and there are Rothbardian libertarians (liberal market reformists primarily in the Anglosphere). These two groups tend to be diametrically opposed to each other.

The latter is never serious (except as a grift). It considers freedom to be a pathological form of positive liberty, where socioeconomic status grants the right to oppress lower classes (which is of course very appealing to conservatives). The US Libertarian party belongs to this version. It was named after traditional libertarianism but it is not actually a descendant ideology (as demonstrated by conflicting stances on fundamental principles).

The former doesn't believe in the "magic of the free market," and focuses instead on eliminating the financial systems that create hierarchy out of inequal access to resources (because the chains of capital impede negative liberty / the right to not be oppressed). As such, it is incompatible with Rothbard's version. This type may organize with socialists or communists, or may seek an immediate anarchist revolution, depending on the variety and individual. I'll let you judge this type of libertarianism for yourself. A common criticism is that it is too "Pie in the Sky."

On a final note, I will argue that the Wikipedia entry is incorrect in stating that Libertarian socialism is unique in rejecting private property. In general, all traditional forms of libertarianism reject private property because it is a vehicle for inequality that propagates hierarchy and oppression. See anarchist communism for another libertarian ideology that opposes private property.

e: I should add I'm mostly talking about the radical, unadulterated versions of these ideologies. Individuals can be more or less radical, serious, committed, aware, informed, etc. If you were to say almost no libertarians see it this way and that in practice they are nearly all silly, I wouldn't really feel compelled to argue lol. That's been my overwhelming experience too, although with a few notable exceptions IRL.

[–] drake@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 6 days ago

This is a really comprehensive summary, thanks - I tell people I am a libertarian socialist when I don’t know if they’re cool enough to learn that I’m a anarcho-communist yet.