851
Kyle Rittenhouse criticized Donald Trump. So conservatives said he's transgender.
(www.lgbtqnation.com)
this post was submitted on 06 Aug 2024
851 points (96.8% liked)
politics
19170 readers
5777 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Somehow this is a controversial opinion in America.
somewhere in America a far right person is gritting their teeth babbling something about 'antifa'
That's because so many governors have made hunting liberal protesters legal. It'll be federally legalized if not mandated if Trump gets back in.
Legally speaking, it's a factually incorrect opinion. So if course it's going to be controversial. I'm not sure why you're surprised.
He was literally acquitted by a jury of his peers of murder. Regardless of how you feel about it, it's shocking that one would be surprised some people think he isn't guilty.
He wasn’t charged correctly.
Had he been charged with 2nd degree murder he would have been convicted.
~~The jury was given instructions that they could also convict him of second degree murder.~~
(Edit) I take this back, I searched my source and I confused the prosecution requesting it, but it was denied by the judge.
I watched every moment of the trial including the jury instructions. You are spreading false information. Please check your sources.
You're right, I searched my source and found that they requested it, but the judge denied it. I'll edit my post.
Good job, we need more people like you, people who value the truth.
Since when do Juries get to take the prosecutor's job?
It's pretty standard for juries to be instructed that they can find someone guilty of a lesser charge. Not sure when this became common practice.
I don't like the guy, he is an idiot who shouldn't have been there and he's proven since then that he's just a piece of shit.
The difference between you and me is that I am able, at least in this case, to put my opinion of someone and my political beliefs aside and objectively look at the facts.
"Don't be so open minded your brain falls out of your head."
Yes, he managed to engineer a situation in which everyone involved could kill the other person and claim self defense. While it gave him a legal defense for shooting someone, that doesn't change the fact that he went there in the first place to shoot someone.
I can acknowledge the court case, not disagree with the decision, and still call Rytenhouse a murderer because his reason for being there is pretty fucking obvious even if impossible to "prove" in court.
Of course you are free to your opinion. But I was responding to someone who is surprised that anyone could consider him not a murderer. You are admitting that it might even be impossible to prove in a court of law, and he was acquitted, so I would think you might also agree how someone might believe he is not a murderer.
And I was responding to someone who seemed to believe they were above other people in their ability to "put their political beliefs aside," and seems to believe it's impossible for someone to look at the facts presented and condemn Rittenhouse without it being political.
You're confusing my attack of an childish meme with an attack on coming to different conclusions based on the facts.
Although, lets me clear, you've not provided any facts that indicate he went there to kill someone.
He went somewhere he had no place to be, with a gun, in order to "protect property" he had no reason to protect. He said himself he went to "protect property". How do you think he was going to use that gun to protect property? Tickle people with it?
Have you never heard "an armed society is a polite one?" Do you think when they send security to any event, the goal is to violently use it? Or do you think that maybe the goal of showing force is to, sometimes, dissuade violence?
American society is armed. Those that are most heavily armed don't seem very polite, but a lot of people get shot.
You don't send security to an event without the intent of using it if needed. When people take a security job they expect they will be using force at some point.
I challenge you to find me someone who works security that doesn't expect to ever use force. The difference is someone who works security is 1) trained, and 2) in situations where they are there as a precaution, not as an expectation. When there is an expectation of violence the police are involved.
Speaking of, if Rittenhouse is concerned about "protecting property" why doesn't he work for the police? I thought vigilantism was illegal.
Remember, we're talking about intent here. Whether you believe it's true has zero bearing, it's whether he may.
Well, sure. But that's like when I put on my seatbelt when I get in the car: I'm not planning to crash into someone just taking the necessary precautions. I know it will be necessary as time approaches infinity, but this is a far cry from saying I intend to get into an accident because I put my seatbelt on, which is effectively what we're talking about.
If your argument is that he's guilty because he knew he might have to use a gun to protect himself, rather than going with the intent of actually shooting someone, then I disagree that this even remotely makes him guilty of a crime, as this would mean I'm guilty of intending to cause an accident because I put my seatbelt.
People believe vaccines cause Autism. When they don't vaccinate their children I'm going to blame them for the death regardless of whatever stupid belief led them to think their children were invincible. They are still at fault despite the stupid crap they believe.
Oh, does Rittenhouse bring his gun like that every time he leaves the house? Or is this more like adding more safety features to your vehicle (air bags, better bumpers, roll cage etc) before going somewhere you knew beforehand people were driving on the wrong side of the road, and the only reason you're going there is to enforce traffic laws?
Rittenhouse is not a cop. He went there to be a vigilante. If he didn't want to use the gun then he's a fucking idiot, and being ignorant is no defence.
Okay, but your argument is that he intended to shoot someone, I think you understand that, even if they are stupid, they didn't intend to kill their child. Just like what was probably to he case with Rittenhouse, he thought he was doing the right thing, he's just an idiot. Unfortunately, being an idiot is not a crime. Intending to kill or hurt someone is, which is what we are talking about.
Ignorance and stupidity is not a defense. It doesn't matter if someone believes there is a child trafficking ring in the basement of a pizza place, and they are "doing the right thing" by going in there with a gun insisting on being shown the basement. It's still a crime.
In this example, you are saying it doesn't matter if they thought they were doing the right thing because a crime was committed anyway. I absolutely agree with you here.
However, your initial position was that Rittenhouse committed a crime because he intended to shoot someone. If your claim is now that he ignorantly broke a law, I would say "okay which one?" and also inquire as to what happened to your initial position. Is this an admission you realize that he may not have gone there with the intent to shoot someone?
"responding to my arguments means you have given up your position."
Not really, no. He went there with the intent to shoot someone. You are correct that we do not have a mind reading machine so it cannot be 100% proven, that doesn't make it not true. I further expanded that even if someone were to accept your argument that he didn't that doesn't mean he's innocent of his actions. My point was either way he's a murderer.
Vigilantism. "The laws / legal system are insufficient" is not a defense of immoral, dangerous, or damaging behaviour.
I've made it pretty clear that Im not certain of his state of mind, by saying he only probably didn't go with an intent to shoot people. Maybe that is even unfair, but I tend to think people are more likely to be motivated stupidity rather than motivated by malice.
You seem to be criticizing your own position here because you are the one defending your claim that you know what his state of mind was, and appear to be assuming, because I disagree with you, that I must be taking the exact opposite position and assuming that I know he had no intent to shoot people.
Sure, and I followed this up with some more questions as to what was the crime. It would have also gone a long way to ease the debate if you had said you were no longer talking about intent (especially because you kept repeatedly saying that intent did not matter) and had moved on to a new way to try and claim you know he was guilty.
Which law exactly? Why wasn't he charged with it? If a shop owner stood there with a gun to protect their own property, is that illegal vigilantism? What if it is the shop owner and their family? Or friend? I'm curious to hear this line of reasoning, but it's a bit vague for me to really sink my teeth into.
Something about you quoting me saying "The laws / legal system are insufficient" and responding with "Which law exactly?" Makes me question your sincerity or how much you're listening to what I'm saying.
What Rittenhouse was doing should be clearly covered by vigilantism. If he wasn't charged with it then the laws are insufficient.
The one that apparently doesn't exist saying "you are not a cop and are not allowed to use deadly force to protect someone else's property."
I believe we would find common ground here. But this is one of political beliefs rather than an objective analysis of the law and whether he broke it that night in such a way that he should be found guilty of murder.
And remember this is where this all comes from, me pointing out that it's weird to claim that it makes no sense that people would think he's not guilty of a crime. You even seem to be relenting a bit and admitting that maybe he didn't break a law, but saying there should be a law against it.
On that last point, I do agree. This should not be legal to do, and he's an idiot for doing it.
Maybe you're having discussions with other people and confusing me with someone else. I remind you that my first reply to you was:
The definition of murder does require "being found guilty of the crime of murder in the place where it happened."
For example: historically it was legal to kill minorities. Those that did were still murderers even if it was "legal" at the time.
I don't care that Rittenhouse was found "not guilty", he's still a murderer. I'm not saying the trial was wrong, I'm saying Rittenhouse was wrong and the existing laws are insufficient.
Case in point:
https://lawandcrime.com/crime/i-will-personally-pluck-out-her-eyes-man-who-threatened-to-light-kamala-harris-on-fire-is-baffled-feds-were-at-his-door-over-a-comment-complaint-alleges/
This armed man was so polite he was confused about why agents would show up at his door over a simple "comment"
Again, whether it's true makes no difference because we're discussing intent to go shoot someone, so if he believes it to be true (or any of the others I listed) then your claim that it is a fact he intended to shoot someone is really just a supposition.
So your defense is he's too stupid and ignorant and shouldn't have been allowed around a gun in the first place?
He's probably too stupid to own a gun or be allowed around one. I'm not sure what this has to do with your claim that he intended to shoot someone.
He obviously went there looking for trouble. What Rittenhouse did in response to other people’s unlawful actions was deemed lawful by a court. There’s not much more to it besides the cases hyper politicisation. For some reason (riots) it became left vs right. If you remove the politics, it’s just some idiot who knowingly went into a dangerous situation - then some other idiots attacked him, one even had a gun pointed at him, this is worse than Rittenhouse simply carrying a gun. It seemed like a dumb case for the left to get behind - nearly nothing about Rittenhouse’s attackers were discussed in the media. It was solely focused on Rittenhouse and his stupidity. Not what whether or not his attackers also did something wrong. Which they did according to a court.
Yes. I'm not calling him a murderer because Republicans have rallied around him, or because of what the protest was about.
Remove the politics and I'm still calling him a murderer because he knowingly put himself in a dangerous situation with the intent of shooting people in order to protect property that wasn't even his, because it is appropriate to take lives to protect property. It is not appropriate to damage property to protect lives.
Yes but Rittenhouse couldn’t have shot someone unless he felt in fear for his life. This isn’t like a cop putting 20 bullets in someone cause he thought his comb was a gun. He literally had a gun pointed at him. If this didn’t happen he would be a murderer. It did happen and the idiot who did this should share the blame of a stupid situation. It’s like people can’t comprehend there are shades of grey.
Who said they weren't both fucking idiots? No one is parading the one that got shot around like they're some kind of hero.
Still doesn't change the fact that Rittenhouse went there to shoot people and is an unrepentant piece of shit.
He was never prosecuted for the most blatant murder.
Which one? What charges should have been brought and what evidence do you have?
Leftism can also be cult like, as evidenced by this comment. Someone who doesn't know the narrative on Rittenhouse is not part of the in-group, therefore even people politely requesting info are Outsiders to be shunned.
It's such a perfect example of a purity test. Say the right thing, or be cast out.
Under different circumstances, you would be MAGA. I'm glad you're using your awful mindset in the benefit of good things, but it still grosses me out that people like you exist.
Removed, civility.
Lol hilarious.
Why are you so angry? Like every other comment you write -to the most benign questions too- is just vitriolic anger.
Why?