this post was submitted on 05 May 2024
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    Don't dare to question Gnome (lemmy.world)
    submitted 6 months ago by woelkchen@lemmy.world to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world
    96 comments fedilink hide all child comments
     

    I was wondering what happened to the proposal from a month ago....

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    [–] stuner@lemmy.world 37 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    I understood Matthew's position as "this should be discussed in the Workstation WG first", not as a "no":

    in favor of the process outlined above (tl;dr: talk to the Workstation WG, and if that does not come to a satisfying outcome, file a Council ticket for next possibilities).

    Post

    It also seemed more likely that they would promote KDE without demoting Gnome.

    But was there a follow-up on that (e.g. in the Workstation WG)?

    [–] woelkchen@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago (11 children)

    I understood Matthew’s position as “this should be discussed in the Workstation WG first”, not as a “no”

    And later he said it's not up to the community but the Fedora Council which at least partially consists of unelected Red Hat-appointed people and all decisions need to be on a consensus-basis, so a single corporate-appointed person can veto everything. FESCO (Fedora Engineering Steering Committee) is democratic, Fedora Council is not.

    [–] stuner@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago

    I'm not sure I follow... Did the Fedora Council actually take a decision?

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    [–] terminhell@lemmy.dbzer0.com 29 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    To be fair, there is and has been a KDE spin. I can see an argument for gnome, as it's overall the simpler environment. Simple defaults has been fedoras thing for a long time.

    [–] woelkchen@lemmy.world 35 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    I can see an argument for gnome, as it’s overall the simpler environment. Simple defaults has been fedoras thing for a long time.

    They could make that argument then and not just close the topic by declaring it a trademark issue.

    [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 30 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Fedora is recognized as the Gnome distro, though. It really is a branding issue.

    [–] woelkchen@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Fedora is recognized as the Gnome distro, though.

    Things could change. That why it was brought up for debate. The debate could have concluded that changing defaults is not the right move.

    It really is a branding issue.

    And what would be the trademark(!) issue? The default desktop edition is called "Fedora Workstation", not "Fedora Gnome", so the branding is not tied to Gnome in any way. Seems more like an attempt to kill a discussion where the popular vote might be undesirable.

    [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt in that they misspoke when saying trademark. Clearly it’s not that, but those nuances are not universally known.

    And branding is not something up to popular vote. It’s, by definition, an image someone or some organization wants to project to the public. To them, they have spins for other DEs/WMs and that’s enough. And why wouldn’t it be?

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    [–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

    The vote likely would of favored gnome. Fedora is enterprise oriented and focuses on being a new version of the stable enterprise. KDE changes very quickly and they do not fix bugs before introducing new features.

    If anything the alternative would be xfce4 but that's not viable for other reasons.

    [–] woelkchen@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    The vote likely would of favored gnome.

    No need to kill it then. Obviously the Red Hat representative got cold feet.

    Fedora is enterprise oriented and focuses on being a new version of the stable enterprise.

    Fedora describes itself as a community-led distribution, not as a corporate beta test for RHEL: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/

    [–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    The enterprise is part community. Rocky is part of the community.

    [–] woelkchen@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    Rocky is part of the community.

    Rocky Linux is part of the Fedora community? WTF?

    [–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 months ago

    What WTF? They are part of the community

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    [–] idefix@sh.itjust.works 27 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    I don't understand the simpler argument. Installing and using extensions and gnome-tweaks to change basic settings is not simpler. And I strongly dislike a large number of defaults.

    With KDE Plasma, defaults make more sense to me so I barely have to change configuration. If I really need to, the setting is there and easily used.

    [–] ikidd@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago

    Since KDE changed to dbl-click by default, the only thing I change is Numlock on boot. 10 seconds to fix, and I know it'll stay changed because KDE is allergic to removing user settings.

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    [–] puppy@lemmy.world 16 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    Simple defaults has been fedoras thing for a long time.

    So has been KDE's for a long time now. Even more so in Plasma 6.

    [–] Rustmilian@lemmy.world 23 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

    "Simple by default, powerful when needed" - KDE

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    [–] Samueru@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    Isnt fedora like the last distro that doesnt symlink /bin and /sbin to /usr/bin?

    [–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    Explanation please

    [–] Samueru@lemmy.ml 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    In the old days distros used to separate the location of binaries in several places like /bin /sbin /usr/bin and /usr/sbin there was this idea that system binaries would go in /sbin while the rest in /bin and the similar dirs in /usr were so that you could mount a separate drive to store more binaries. This is from a time where storage was an issue.

    These days distros usually just symlink all those locations to /usr/bin with the exception of fedora, which still keeps some split.

    However it seems they will finally merge the remaining dirs in fedora 41: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Unify_bin_and_sbin

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    [–] ikidd@lemmy.world 24 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

    Look, we knew Fedora wasn't going to drop Gnome. Gnome is almost entirely a Redhat project, it's there for the paying corporate market so it doesn't confuse the drones by offering "choices", and Fedora is the proving ground of any changes that might affect said drones. I can't even argue with the logic.

    Lots of Plasma-Fedora distros out there, like the spin and Nobara/bazzite that frankly are better starting places for most power users anyway, since you don't have to get around the repo/codec issues yourself.

    [–] woelkchen@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

    Look, we knew Fedora wasn’t going to drop Gnome. Gnome is almost entirely a Redhat project, it’s there for the paying corporate market so it doesn’t confuse the drones by offering “choices”, and Fedora is the proving ground of any changes that might affect said drones. I can’t even argue with the logic.

    The project leader could just be honest about that instead of making BS up.

    [–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Not to mention Fedora KDE from the Fedora project

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    [–] PenisWenisGenius@lemmynsfw.com 20 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (10 children)

    I used to use Gnome all the time but I have to install a bunch of extensions for it to be usable. This one addon, I think it was called window list, is the most important and invaluable one of them all. There is no way I can use Gnome without it and I don't understand how other people have the patience to deal with not having that. The number of times I updated Gnome and found out window list was so out of date the only way I could get it working was if I download the source code and fix the issue myself, is too damn high. That addon should be part of Gnome by default.

    Now I use cinnamon or kde depending on which one works better in that respective distro's repository. Some installations of your favorite desktop environment come with better configs than others. For example last time I tried KDE on Ubuntu, it was a broken buggy annoying mess to the point it was was less functional than Windows 11's ui. On Arch, KDE is the epitome optimization and polish. On Arch, cinnamon is respectably borked out of the box. Cinnamon on Ubuntu usually only comes with a few bugs however I rarely end up finding a way to fix said bugs.

    LXDE is the same across distros usually but I only use it if running Linux on an absolute potato. That lack of a start menu search is awful, I don't miss those pre-search bar era uis. I need a search bar dammit.

    [–] herrvogel@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    On Arch, KDE is the epitome optimization and polish.

    Cannot relate. At all.

    Last friday I re-installed Arch with KDE this time instead of GNOME for a change, and in these two and a half days I've already encountered more bugs and crashes than I did the entire time I was on GNOME. Kinda regretting the decision already. All that with stock applets and widgets and shit that come bundled with the DE. I don't want to imagine what things would be like if I started to mess around with third party stuff.

    [–] Nisaea@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Idk man, EndeavourOS on KDE has been amazing to me, even on Wayland. Even the plasma 5 to 6 upgrade has been ridiculously smooth. I have a feeling arch may not be the most unified distro to judge a DE on... Hope stuff stabilizes for you a bit. That's no fun. :(

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    [–] alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (4 children)

    I'm glad Fedora comes with the most usable no-bs/out-of-the-way (in my subjective experience) DE by default. Yes I do run it with Tweaks and a few extensions, but otherwise I have no need for extensive customization for customization’s sake (which seems so many ppls problem with GNOME, smth that I couldn't find more irrelevant), since everything about its UI/UX is so intuitive. I understand if people don't like its opinionated workflow, but it's just right for me personally...

    I don't get the proposal either way bc Fedora has always been the spearhead of vanilla GNOME and there is an official KDE spin iirc

    [–] recarsion@discuss.tchncs.de 24 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    I don't really get what people mean when describing Gnome or any DE as "out of the way". I've never felt like KDE was "in my way".

    [–] kureta@lemmy.ml 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    I really couldn't find a better way to describe how it feels to use gnome. I am used almost all tiling window managers through the years. I always got lost in configuring my setup. I know I didn't have to, but there was almost another step of optimization that was available to me. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, of course. I have been using gnome o arch for the past few years, a plank/dock extension, a system tray, and a clipboard manager. That's it, there is nothing to fiddle with, to distract me. It is entirely personal. I just can't stop myself from trying to optimize my desktop/workflow if there are still ways to optimize it. Before gnome I was using my WM/DE and then the applications necessary for my actual work. Now, the DE is "out of the way" and I just do what I actually have to do. But again, this is entirely personal.

    [–] alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

    This is very similar to my experience tho I have skipped most of my ricing/customization phase with Gnome bc I just didn't feel the need to do much about it bar a few extensions

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    [–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Or you can run OpenSuSE which comes with one of the best Kde versions by default.

    It's another enterprise type distribution that's rock solid. It also has a rolling version.

    1lso it's based in Europe, which some see as a plus.

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    [–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 2 points 6 months ago

    I also really like the GNOME workflow and try to recreate it currently, but the missing menu is kinda making that hard.

    I like workspaces and want to use them. But I also like a bottom bar where I can add all the small things I need. Not much, but currently CPU load and temps, weather, workspace indicator, a few spacers, rest default.

    I like the powerful apps where there are no alternatives on GNOME. Dolphin (the absolute best, cant use anything else, pcmanfm-qt is bearable), Kate/Kwrite, Okular, Gwenview.

    GNOME literally ships Loupe, which doesnt have a single editing function. Use GIMP for the rest?? For rotating or cropping images?

    While I really like the workflow, there are sooo many things (like a clipboard manager) missing that it is not worth it for me.

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    [–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 7 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    What proposal?

    [–] synapse1278@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    To make KDE Plasma the new default Desktop environment for future Fedora Workstation releases in place of Gnome.

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    [–] gianni@lemmy.ml 6 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    I'm glad Fedora has GNOME as default. The KDE spin appears to be well-maintained enough for those interested to enjoy it.

    [–] Lem453@lemmy.ca 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    Fedora atomic with kde (kionite) has been amazing on my laptop so far (recently moved from mint)

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    [–] Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Use Bazzite or Aurora if you want an amazing, Fedora Silverblue/Universal Blue-based KDE experience, it's much better than normal Fedora anyway

    [–] SimplyTadpole@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    How does Bazzite differ from Kinoite? I use the latter but have been hearing about the former for a while now, and was curious what exactly sets it apart from what I use and what benefits I'd have switching to it.

    [–] helpmyusernamewontfi@lemmy.today 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (7 children)

    Gaming.

    if you game on Linux you wanna go with bazzite, games "just work" on there without any tweaking or fixing or patching. And in the rare case you do need to patch a game like gmod, they have a built in script for it like ujust fix-gmod

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    [–] Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 6 months ago

    By default it uses KDE instead of GNOME, you have the choice though. It makes some stuff easier for new users. Bazzite is also optimized for gaming and in some areas tries to mimic the Steam Deck experience pretty closely. It also includes all the Universal Blue goodness like ujust (basically a collection of scripts that is very helpful for quickly installing and setting up various things on your system). It also includes some quality-of-life improvements in the Terminal. You could compare it to Nobara, but built on top of Fedora Atomic (Kinoite). Check out their website for more information: https://bazzite.gg/

    [–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 2 points 6 months ago

    Bazzite is based on Kinoite but adds A TON of rpms to the base.

    Rather than using WINE through Flatpak (Bottles, Lutris, Cartridges + ProtonUpQt) it is on the system. This has some performance benefits and makes using it way easier, but you now run random Windows software unsandboxed. If it wants to it can do whatever it wants.

    And some more.

    https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/?tab=readme-ov-file#about--features

    [–] boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

    True that. Even though Ptyxis is not needed on Kinoite as Konsole profiles do literally that.

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