this post was submitted on 16 Feb 2024
100 points (90.3% liked)

Asklemmy

43907 readers
897 users here now

A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions

Search asklemmy 🔍

If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!

  1. Open-ended question
  2. Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
  3. Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
  4. Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
  5. An actual topic of discussion

Looking for support?

Looking for a community?

~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Do explain your answers answers much as you can. Like which of the ones were proved right/wrong , how did it come to be .etc.etc.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Lath@kbin.social 123 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Nothing proven. Much documentary about it though.

There's a vine/TikTok dude that made a short about it somewhat recently in a shallow and humorous fashion.
Basically, the Jackson dad was an asshole who beat his kids. Michael being the most successful one got the worst of it, as per the documentary. Not sure if his brothers covered him and how often.
He didn't have a childhood, he had beatings, training and concerts.
His soft-spoken voice was beaten into him, only allowed to use his full voice for singing.
His Neverland was built for that which he never had and he tried to give that to other children he felt were like him.
Whether something happened is only known by the the people involved, but odds are that unless Michael himself was molested as a child, it's far more likely that he was deeply traumatized, cried himself to sleep and had recurring night terrors.

I'll repeat, only the people involved know what happened and they're not talking.

[–] fidodo@lemmy.world 19 points 9 months ago

If he was specifically trying to invite children with bad childhoods then it's not actually too surprising that some of their parents would come after him.

[–] schteph@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

Mac is talking and denying any wrongdoing on Michael's part.https://www.unilad.com/celebrity/macaulay-culkin-michael-jackson-inappropriate-behaviour-712982-20230423

[–] AdamEatsAss@lemmy.world 80 points 9 months ago (2 children)

He was acquitted of criminal charges while still alive from NPR. People have tried to sue his estate over alleged inappropriate behavior since his death but nothing made it to court yet. So legally no, he never molested any minors. But the fact that there were multiple allegations is concerning.

[–] shinigamiookamiryuu@lemm.ee 16 points 9 months ago

Unless there was something to gain.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Donjuanme@lemmy.world 68 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Grew up in a town near Neverland ranch in the 90s, he hosted the local little league champions team to a party there. I'm pretty sure a classmate of mine went there once. Only had nice things to say about it, but even then there were jokes and rumors.

On one hand I can see people scapegoating a successful black man, from multiple angles there may also be feelings of betrayal from the black community. On the other hand, I was also up the road from Oprah, and I never heard anything about parties for groups of minors that she hosted.

Where there's smoke there probably fire, but racists and radicals are good at hiding smoke machines.

[–] cooopsspace@infosec.pub 27 points 9 months ago (3 children)

"Where there's smoke there's fire" is really interesting when the courts operate on the basis of "innocent until proven guilty".

[–] shinigamiookamiryuu@lemm.ee 23 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Anyone who says "where there's smoke there's fire" never did chemistry class at school. Probably the second worst idiom one can say.

[–] Donjuanme@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Funny, because I'm a decade long chemical analyst, with a solid half of that time doing smoke taint research....

I know creosol compounds better than 99.9% of the population. I live in an area that's known for burning down... The way I identify fire each and every time is by it's smoke.

There are ways to impart the essence of smoke, but more often than not people are trying to hide the fact that there is or was smoke.

So please tell me, a chemist, how if there's smoke there's fire, is one of the worst idioms of all time? Exothermic chain reactions with organic matter produce carbon rings that get carried away from the site of the reaction is a perfectly valid statement.

[–] shinigamiookamiryuu@lemm.ee 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] Donjuanme@lemmy.world 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I'm not sure if you read the couching of my statement that there are smoke machines.

Or that, you know, I'm an analytical chemist for smoke.... And there may be smoke without fires (as I eluded to in the original post), but where there is a fire there is absolutely smoke. And I believe I've taken at least a chemistry course to get where I am today... But who says the universe wasn't created last Thursday...

Also there are some idioms that are never true, how are they not worse than an idiom that "isn't always true"? I think your scale on idioms are off as much as your judgement of people's chemistry backgrounds.

[–] shinigamiookamiryuu@lemm.ee 2 points 9 months ago

Because I was thinking mainly of idioms in this kind of context. Many idioms wouldn't be said in this context. Other idioms that have even more negative potential include but are not limited to...

"Spare the rod, spoil the child."

"One bad apple ruins the whole bunch."

"Fight fire with fire." (why the Hell would someone fight fire with fire)

"Flies are attracted more by honey than vinegar."

"Tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you who you are."

The idiom in question is "where there's smoke there's fire" and it alludes to the idea that "much ado" is never about nothing, that commotion is never born in a vacuum. This is neither true literally or figuratively (people do not operate in the same way as smoke and fire, people seem more analogous to snow avalanching down a mountain if we are to update the idiom), but the fact it's not even true literally spells out a glaring problem with even invoking the idiom. The reverse statement, "where there's fire there's smoke", isn't true either.

[–] idiomaddict@feddit.de 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

There’s a difference between the courts and a person. If I had to decide if someone or something is safe, I have a much lower standard than “beyond the shadow of a doubt.”

If my Uber driver is slurring and smells like cheap brandy, I’m not getting in the car, but that’s not enough to charge them with a DUI, thankfully.

[–] mudeth@lemmy.ca 3 points 9 months ago

That's an interesting example. Here in my city there was a case of a transport officer crashing his car into someone. He smelled of alcohol and was slurring and it was in the news cycle with great outrage and irony.

A few days later news broke that he had died of diabetes-related complications. Apparently the smell was not alcohol, it was ketones from him being hyperglycemic.

Going back to your "standards" statement, for an individual it would make sense not to get into a car this person drives. At the same time it makes sense for the court not to convict him until he is proven guilty. Both standards have their place and rightfully so.

[–] yesman@lemmy.world -1 points 9 months ago

when the courts operate on the basis of “innocent until proven guilty”.

This is a slogan, a hypothetical that applies to a spherical defendant in a vacuum. In over 90% of all US criminal convictions, the prosecution has no burden of proof.

[–] Count042@lemmy.ml 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You lived in Lompoc, Goleta, Solvang, Santa Maria or Santa Barbara.

You remember the giant Santa next to the 101 near Summerland?

[–] Donjuanme@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I very much do, I was very sad last time I visited SB to see that it was gone, though I feel I hadn't seen it on a few of my previous trips, but now they're building something where it used to be and it clicked that. "didn't there used to be someone else iconic there? Oh yeah, Santa!". Also pea soup Anderson's is closing, and that's.... Meh. As long as the palace survives I'm a happy SB tourist.

I remember people diving off the street lights into the underpasses, and the airport being so flooded that water was piling up behind the fence, the CHAIN LINK fence at the Goleta airport during El nino in the late 90s.

My home town was not known for anything tourist, so that'll narrow the list down a bit.

[–] Count042@lemmy.ml 4 points 9 months ago

Oh man, I loved that year. There was a culvert that want under a bridge between Hillsboro and Cannon Green that normally is empty. That year our was almost full. My friends and I tied a route around or waists and jumped in the culvert of waste water. It ran so fast that we were able to water ski

Man, fairview and Hollister was flooded then. You couldn't drive through it then. I was not into the pirate BBS scene back then with a good friend that ended up dying by getting hit by a train in the mid 2000's

You every jump off of the tree swing in the bluffs? The one that broke the back of one of the DP teachers?

[–] Count042@lemmy.ml 4 points 9 months ago

Also, the Living room. That place was magic.

[–] Flumpkin@slrpnk.net 59 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

From what I've read they almost certainly completely wrong. This is a blog site that lays out the timeline and evidence and all the shenanigans. It's pretty horrible reading this. There is zero evidence and all the witnesses contradicted themselves or outright lied. A jury found him not guilty. But it was a cottage industry. It's about greed and media malfeasance and racism and maybe just hatred of freaks.

https://themichaeljacksonallegationsblog.wordpress.com/

[–] THE_MASTERMIND@feddit.ch 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

What a horrible website they don't let you read at all without accepting all the cookies and trackers

[–] Flumpkin@slrpnk.net 11 points 9 months ago (9 children)

It's wordpress. I use ghostery addon to avoid cookie popups (always deny) and trackers.

load more comments (9 replies)
[–] SecretPancake@feddit.de 31 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Nothing ever proven. He was weird, he had issues with boundaries and felt like a child himself. He never hid the fact that he slept in the same bed with these children and thought it’s just a very normal thing (he mentioned it in an interview that was also shown in Leaving Neverland I think). Maybe he did some things with them that he also thought was normal like, you know, children discovering themselves, playing doctor and stuff. Not good at all. But from his perspective kinda innocent games. Just a theory about his intent and no excuse of course. If anything happened anyways.

I was always a big fan of his music and general style and still am but I think it is possible some things happened behind the scenes because he was just a very broken person. And later I felt he had this “too good to be true” vibe to him.

There are also rumors he was gay and that fucked him up even more because he had to hide it (like pretty much everyone back then).

[–] CeruleanRuin@lemmy.world 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I've also read convincing theories that he was on the spectrum, which could explain a lot of his challenges interacting with people, as well as his obsessive tendencies.

[–] altima_neo@lemmy.zip 8 points 9 months ago

And his perfectionism with regards to his performances

[–] THE_MASTERMIND@feddit.ch 3 points 9 months ago

Hmm . Yeah that is possible too i guess

[–] pelletbucket@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago

I remember hearing at the time that the family that ended up suing him had been sort of fishing for a celebrity to take their kids for a night so they could sue them?

so like, maybe it really did happen, I remember hearing the sentiment "he's guilty, but he got sued by the wrong family" because that particular family had been acting shady. that was why Jay Leno had to testify? I can't remember

[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works -1 points 9 months ago

No, man. He made Thriller. Thriller.

load more comments
view more: next ›