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[unanswered] What if Amish people immigrate into Europe. Would it help Europeans escape the forced “digital transformation”? (sopuli.xyz)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by freedomPusher@sopuli.xyz to c/nostupidquestions@mander.xyz

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cross-posted from: https://sopuli.xyz/post/6076984

Belgian municipalities have started forcing people to use web browsers to interact with public services. That’s right. It’s no longer possible to reach a variety of public services in an analog way in some Belgian regions. And for people willing to wrestle with the information systems being imposed, it also means cash payment is now impossible when a service requires a fee. The government is steam-rolling over elderly people who struggle with how to use technology along with those who only embrace inclusive privacy-respecting technology. These groups are apparently small enough to be marginalized without government reps worrying about lost votes.

Hypothetically, what would happen if some Amish villages existed in Belgium? I ask because what’s being imposed would strongly go against their religion. Would the right to practice religion carry enough weight to compel the government to maintain an offline option even if it’s a small group of Amish? If yes, would that option likely be extended to everyone, or exclusive to the Amish?

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[–] tchotchony@mander.xyz 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As I also posted on the other thread: this isn't true.

While there’s a big push to book an appointment online and do smaller admin stuff yourself (requesting an ID and driving license), municipalities still have to allow people to book on the spot, or help them on the kiosks available. Actual efficiency depends on the friendliness of the administrative people in question I guess, but it’s absolutely still possible to not have to go online for it.

From the flemish website

(…)Maar waar ze altijd welkom zijn op het gemeentehuis als ze dat wensen.

aka: They’re always still welcome to visit public services in person if they prefer to do that.

[–] freedomPusher@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It’s also simply not true.

It simply is true. You’re talking about what should happen based on something you read. I’m talking about what is happening based on concrete 1st-hand experience.

municipalities still have to allow people to book on the spot, or help them on the kiosks available.

“have to” ≠ status quo reality. Apparently you missed the demonstration in Brussels a few weeks ago where hundreds of people demanded the reopening of offline public services. Some real-world test cases:

case 1: If you go to the commune to deregister, you fight your way past their attempt to push the online service, at which point you talk to someone in the population registry dept. who only directs you to send the request via post. If you hand-deliver the request into their postbox, they simply ignore it. (side note: ignoring postal correspondence is the same way public services in the US have started quietly unofficially imposed online transactions)
case 2: If you go to the commune to reserve parking in front of your property for workers, they point to a QR code on the wall. If you insist on an offline transaction, the receptionist refuses. If you say that you need to pay cash, the receptionist says “impossible, because online is the only way”.

“have to” ≠ reality also for analog payments. It is legally obligatory in Belgium for money recipients to accept cash banknotes. But it’s not enforced. Both the gov and private sector services (e.g. Vivaqua) are violating that law.

So indeed, you cannot simply trust at face value what you read is supposed to happen. You need to actually demand offline service yourself. Best to test it in Brussels; this is where some communes are experimenting with digital exclusion.

From the flemish website

(…)Maar waar ze altijd welkom zijn op het gemeentehuis als ze dat wensen.

That page is undated and that quote is no longer true. Case 2 above happened this year.