this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2024
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No Stupid Questions

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And I'm being serious. I feel like there might be an argument there, I just don't understand it. Can someone please "steelman" that argument for me?

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[–] DankDingleberry@lemmy.world 17 points 13 hours ago
[–] moitoi@lemmy.dbzer0.com -5 points 6 hours ago (4 children)

It's not Gaza. It's that the Dems are a party of the riches. They don't represent the poorer anymore. When you have this political shift, you open the doors of the far right.

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[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 6 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

Late but here’s my model of the situation. Sort of a WIP and very new but a /gen effortpost, so I welcome thoughts:

It’s individualism versus collectivism. The collectivist understands intimately the function of working together for the protection and future of the group. There is no doubt in her mind about the practical nature of her actions because she can see them play out in her community. The individualist, by contrast, operates solo; everything for him is about your vote, your candidate. This leads to a divide between the individualist and the material outcomes of his actions. This gap—this absence of practicality, we might call it—leaves a vacuum where symbolism can enter. This becomes a problem not when symbolism is simply encountered by the individualist, but when the symbol becomes the act, when the vote becomes a kind of personal expression, and any thought for collective consequences falls by the wayside.

“Ordinarily,” if we imagine such a thing exists, these two identities intermix and act in a complex and altogether non-problematic way; I don’t wish to imply that individualism is simply “bad” while collective action is “good.” For example, concepts of individualism are fundamental to advancing human rights to consent and bodily autonomy.

However, the setting and background of your question is the USA, a country with deep, deep historical ties to white supremacist, capitalist, colonialist, even fascist values, all of which hold the individual as intrinsic over the collective. The result is that hyperindividualism is catastrophically rooted in the heart of U.S. society—even in progressive and leftist spaces!

So, when you see a pro-Palestinian proclaim abstention or that they voted third party, you are witnessing the complex outcome of genuine compassion intermingled with the values instilled by white supremacy and individualism. And so you hear the phrase, “I just can’t in good conscience vote for XYZ.” To degrees varying between people, the vote loses its material value and becomes nothing more than a symbolic moral statement.

This doesn’t mean the leftist non-voter is a white supremacist, of course! Rather, it’s that they have been deeply affected by the presence of those values in their cultural context and have not yet had the opportunity or experience with group frameworks to question their assumptions and reassert the significant importance of collectivism.

So, in conclusion, the unnuanced TLDR is “because America is a racist capitalist hellhole.” The good news I conclude from this, though, is that collectivism can be learned and promoted. Cultural values are definitely not static, and perhaps with education, support, and time, mindsets among leftists can be shifted to better support the whole of the community.

[–] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 10 points 15 hours ago

when you are laser focused on a single thing, anything else just slides past you. making life changing decisions with limited information is a uniquely american trait

[–] niktemadur@lemmy.world 33 points 20 hours ago (6 children)

Because if it wasn't Gaza, it would have been another excuse to not lift a lazy goddamned finger and still delude themselves into feeling "morally superior"while sitting on their fat mediocre asses at home.

Before Harris, they also leaned heavily on the "Sleepy Joe" bullshit and "two old white men up for election, who cares". Once the old "Sleepy Joe" element was removed from the equation, they had to find a way to keep their goddamned stubbornly lazy and ignorant narrative intact.

Now that the election is over, most of these "concerned and outraged" deadweight assholes will never think about Gaza and the plight of its' people again. And they will keep on feeling smug about themselves.

[–] gerryflap@feddit.nl 2 points 8 hours ago

I'm not American, and I don't agree with these people either, but I don't think that calling them lazy and ignorant makes any sense. In the fucked up democracy of the US it's clear that the only way to get what you want for the coming 4 years is to vote for the least bad candidate. At the same time I can definitely understand that if you view both candidates was horrible, though one way more horrible than the other, you would feel conflicted about voting for either of them.

Let's do a thought experiment. Assuming both candidates are still roughly equally "popular". If both candidates wanted to start a genocide, but one would want to kill only 50% of the amount of innocents that the other would kill, how would you vote? Would you vote for the one who is overall the less bad option, which will in turn make you give your vote for something horrible. Or would you abstain and signal that the democracy as it currently stands has lost your confidence entirely, even if it means that on the short term the consequences might be way worse?

Not voting actually costs the democrats something, and should (if they want to win next time) force them to think how to better represent you next time.

It's fucked up that your democracy came to this. It has become an annoying game theory dilemma instead of voting for the candidate that you actually believe in. Our system here in the Netherlands is certainly also not perfect, since we have too many parties and too long coalition negotiations, but at least I feel like it represents people way better. Anyone can start a party and capture seat if they represent a large enough niche.

[–] gi1242@lemmy.world 21 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

I know one of those people. they are now angry the left lost... 🙄

[–] orcrist@lemm.ee 3 points 13 hours ago

I said the same thing about people like you before the election, and I'll repeat it again. The laser focus on single issue voters was and will always be mostly an excuse to blame someone else.

To look at it another way, if this one issue actually decided the election, why didn't Harris change her strategy two months ago? ... Maybe it's because this wasn't the determining issue. Or it was, and her staff was incompetent. Take your pick.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 3 points 14 hours ago

OP asked for a steelman but good try

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[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 6 points 15 hours ago
[–] huquad@lemmy.ml 32 points 23 hours ago (5 children)

It's the trolley problem. You see a trolley about to kill 5 people. You can pull a lever (vote) and make the trolley only kill 1. In this case, that 1 person is also in the lineup of 5. This distinction makes it obvious the only option is to pull the lever (vote).

[–] Draegur@lemm.ee 18 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

They mistakenly believe that by pulling the lever they are complicit in the trolley. That by interacting with the trolley on the trolley's terms, they are consenting to the trolley's actions.

I used to believe that too once... Once.

I was disabused of that notion before 2012, but sadly not enough people were.

[–] huquad@lemmy.ml 11 points 16 hours ago

Inaction is also an action. You're always playing the game, might as well learn the rules.

[–] gerryflap@feddit.nl -1 points 8 hours ago

I agree that people should've voted, but I disagree with this one-dimensional line of thinking. I can see the argument that by voting for the democrats their current behaviour and this fucked up system as a whole is warranted. It's not as simple as "why not vote, it costs you nothing". By voting this horrible "democracy" is legitimised and the democrats and the system will not change their approach. The US deserves a democracy that actually allows for representation instead of this duopoly of garbage and more garbage

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