"I WAS going to vote against fascism, but now you've FORCED me to vote for fascism!"
this post was submitted on 19 Sep 2024
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I had a conversation with my conservative neighbor who legitimately made this argument. He was saying that it's the left's fault for telling all these young conservative men that they're Nazis, which makes those poor impressionable young men go "well if you're going to call me a fascist then I'm going to fascist even harder just to spite you."
It does, though. It doesn't have to make sense to you, but it's natural for people to say "who welcomes me? Who attacks me?" And go with those who welcome them. Is it simplistic? Sure. But either you learn how to take on the educational and emotional burden of reaching out, or you have extra enemies.
Important caveat: telling a person their ideology is hateful isn't "an attack," and letting them continue to wallow in ignorance is more unkind than enlightening them.
That they feel attacked is another issue. We still have to deal with the consequences of this, and should be cognizant of it, but at the end of the day let us not lose the plot and start conflating their sensitivity with offensive language as if they weren't two very different things.
Indeed. The raw fact of how people tend to work doesn't make it right. It's just that hating on them for it is ineffectual.
but it’s natural for people to say “who welcomes me? Who attacks me?” And go with those who welcome them.
The people in my life who are wearing the red hats are essentially always the ones attacking, despite making up a tiny fraction of the people in my social sphere. The rest of us just spend every family gathering or social event hoping they won't start spouting off this time, and offering zero of our own opinions because we know they absolutely will start spouting off if we do. They have a chilling effect on topics that anyone can discuss, compared to what we can discuss when they are not there.
So yeah, IME they are the oppressors from Trump all the way down.
My maga neighbor across the street has no idea if I'd welcome him or not, because his yard is full of hand lettered signs letting me know in no uncertain terms that anyone who votes like I do is a moron/traitor, etc. So I just pretend he doesn't exist, and hope he and his (continuous stream of) visiting buddies don't blow up the neighborhood or get careless with their guns one day.
The one and only sign he does have in spanish is the one letting everyone know he's got a surveillance system though. That's probably not racist though...
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Yeah, I know when I'm just hanging out and meet a bunch of nazis talking about how jews and blacks need to be exterminated, I feel welcomed and understood.
They were racist before, they're comfortable because they finally get to take off their masks, or hoods in this case.
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"And in a way, that makes YOU the fascist!"
Continues becoming even more fascist
"I used to hold very strong leftist values and principles up until someone on the internet hurt my feelings."
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I've learned recently that the skinhead movement used to be antiracist and leftist af. Until nazis infiltrated the skinhead punk scene.
Nazis have a rich history of stealing symbols and coopting movements. They're like hateful little magpies who steal any shiny bits of culture they find and take them back to their nests to shit all over them.
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Antiracist and leftist is kind of an exaggeration; rather an apolitical subculture of the British working class up until the late 70s/early 80s when the National Front infiltrated the scene. This was during the second wave of the skinhead movement, the original skinheads in the 60s were influenced by West Indian immigrants to the UK, and listened mainly to ska and jamaican music, but generally not very politically conscious or involved. Kind of a rougher offshoot of the mod subculture.
The second wave of skinheads came out of the punk movement. A lot of skins were into Oi!/streetpunk and the NF made their own version which was then called RAC (Rock against communism) but is better known these days (at least in Europe) as White Power Music.
I'm not saying there weren't leftist skinheads (Redskins and Angelic Upstarts would be a good place to start) but as a subculture, the common theme is rather working class identity and pride - which unfortunately, as we've seen, can be exploited by fascist movements as well.
Nazi punks, FUCK OFF!
Nazis ruin everything. And we let them.
They get angry because even when they try to mask their racism it still clearly shows.
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While this does get pushed it's important to realize they're pushing it to take in people who feel rejected by liberals and leftists. That's why when there's a question that appears honest it's important to treat it in good faith before assuming they're a conservative troll.
There are people who spend their entire childhood hearing garbage like "black people are more disposed to criminality, because 50% of the prison population is black but only 20% of society is Black." And they just haven't ever been exposed to concepts like over policing. When you just react aggressively right away it can actually push them back into that ideology and then it's really more a matter of the people around them. Humans need community. If political or religious truths are required for membership then they will adopt them.
And yes these same rules apply to someone who grew up hearing the US is an imperialist bully state. This is why diversity in school, the workplace, church, and wherever people congregate is so damn important. We need to see that we aren't devils, that we all want the same thing. (A peaceful existence with enough distractions and the ability to provide for our family)
That's also why extremist ideologues are so hell bent on isolating people. Home schooling, as many church events as possible, sun down towns, church approved summer camp, members only clubs, intolerance of tolerance, etc.
Agreed, although I think that "home schooling" should be bolded and italicized.
Hey, I was homeschooled and turned out okay! ...My mom also has a bachelor of science and is, in general, a woman of science, though...so...maybe a little different for my case.
There isn't just the education aspect. There's also the social aspect.
Yeah, like half of that list is fine if you aren't using to specifically cut people off from the rest of society. But that's the entirety of why they push it.
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Here people often self report with "I'm not racist....but"
Proceeds to spout incredibly offensive and uneducated xenophobic take revealing they've never had a personal relationship with a person of color or other marginalized group
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Poor conservatives. Always getting picked on by all those mean normies.
Always be projecting. It's the only thing they know.
Even South Park touched on that sentiment. Like, how is calling everything racist eventually make one racist? That's the most asinine excuse I've heard to be racist!
"I wasn't racist until someone called me racist!"
No, you are already are a racist, you're just making up excuses to finally show the real you.
Twisting their arms to be what they really are.
In a different context: EDIT: And not Related to the main point of the post.
The nazis did have cool uniforms and i think there is something super woke and punk about wearing a version of one where all the symbols are defiled or replaced.
There is a certain something in denying fascist the power to claim an outfit or even such ancient symbol, and liberating fashion. But especially symbolism is easily misunderstood. You need very obvious irony or anti symbolism to pull it off.
I think making marginalised people around you not have to get close enough to check out your emblems before they get the fuck out of your vicinity is orders of magnitude more important than "reclaiming" "cool" uniforms that were never yours to claim in the first place unless you're a Nazi yourself, and aren't really cool at all unless you're in to authoritarianism (and if that's your kink, whatever, but you don't get to inflict fear on to non consenting participants with it).
There are plenty of other uniform like cloths for you to wear, deliberately making yourself look like a Nazi isn't doing positive shit for anyone.
I am not saying i want to don a nazi cosplay, and i did express that in reality this is complicated.
Its more the principle of “i cannot do this” even if i have non offensive intentions, because if i do people will associate it with the bad intentions.
To me this leaves a dirty feeling of them having a super minor grip over creative choices.
Admittedly a lot of this is coming from a core memory of mine where a very young and innocent artistic child had to come to terms that i am not allowed to draw the momentum of windmills.
I love geometry a lot more then i like uniforms, but the same philosophical pattern applies.
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Idk, I liked the Black Panther uniforms better.
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