this post was submitted on 16 Nov 2023
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[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 144 points 1 year ago (117 children)

I’ve always thought being “proud” of your race, any race, is a weird concept.

Like, you didn’t do anything to be white, or black, or asian. Why would you take pride in something you had no agency in?

[–] felbane@lemmy.ml 64 points 1 year ago (8 children)

See also pride of:

  • Nationality
  • Sexuality
  • Religion (generally indoctrinated rather than explicitly chosen)
  • Region (state/province/etc)
  • Hometown
  • Pre-university school (K-12 in US, for example - largely assigned by zoning and not by choice)
  • Natural physical attributes (tallness, eye color, breast/penis size)
  • Achievements of friends/family without your direct support
[–] noxy@yiffit.net 57 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • Sexuality

Nah. Queer pride is a good thing.

It's not pride as in "I am proud of this painting I made." Rather, it's pride as in "rejecting shame for being queer".

[–] rchive@lemm.ee 27 points 1 year ago

"Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame." -Uncle Iroh

[–] mightyfoolish@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People really don't understand these slogans. For example, we can look at "Black Lives Matter." It was just a poetic way to say "black lives should matter." The problem with replying with "all lives matter" is that they don't all matter. (Especially in American society LGBT and Native tribes don't always do so well either.) Which is the problem in the first place. These people are denying the issues.

[–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Exactly. "Black Live Matter" is a statement of imperative, as in "look at these people you have been ignoring", while "All Lives Matter" is saying "there is no problem, everything is fine".

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[–] AdamHenry@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 1 year ago

People have no idea how if feels for kids to be made to feel as they don't belong or that there is something wrong with them. It infuriates me that schools can't teach inclusivity due to terrorist groups like Moms for Liberty.

[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (12 children)

But why should rejecting shame automatically turn into pride? I’m not “proud” of every part of me that I’m not ashamed of.

Plus, it’s weird how the things are seen differently. “Queer pride” is usually seen as “sticking it to the homo/transphobes”, while someone saying they’re “proud of being cishet” sounds like they just hate LGBT people (and I mean, that’s probably correct). Why isn’t “proud of being gay” seen with the same acception?

[–] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 31 points 1 year ago (12 children)

They are proud in order to fight the shame that conservatives constantly tell them they should feel for existing. It's a tool for empowerment and fighting back against oppression.

[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

So in your opinion, if we reached a level of society where no one is oppressed for their identity/sexuality, would it just cease to “be an idiom”?

[–] Lemminary@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (11 children)

Let's get there first and then we decide. For now, I'm proud to be gay.

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[–] Default_Defect@midwest.social 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Anyone that claims to be proud of being white or straight is doing it in opposition of black pride, or queer pride, etc. It might as well be the same as the all lives matter outrage.

[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because that’s a logical flaw. “If black people and white people deserve the same rights, and black people can be proud of being black, why can’t white people be proud of being white?”

The difference between normal people and racists is that normal people might think of it as weird, but don’t talk about it because they don’t really care about “white pride”, while racists openly declare it and use the “fallacy” to stir the pot.

[–] Default_Defect@midwest.social 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

I can't believe I'm being downvoted on Lemmy of all places for thinking "white pride" is bad and and the alternatives aren't. I don't even have a rebuttal, I'm just flabbergasted.

Edit: I was 0/5 when I typed this.

[–] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 2 points 1 year ago

I'm being charitable and chalking it up to people with 0 social awareness or life experience who don't realize how much they are enabling the real bigots.

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[–] Drivebyhaiku@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Short answer - because the original events were called "Pride" and other events that followed that model and style can literally trace the name to two organizers of the original event, Brenda Howard and Robert A. Martin.

Long answer...

What is important to remember about Pride is it is specific. Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual liberation marches pre-date Prides but they were more like a conventional protest and they were poorly attended because you had to expect police violence. They were dour, focused primarily on the pain and hardship of oppression. It was mostly people dressed to look respectable marching with signs to appeal to the cis/hetro masses in a "hey look we're actually just like you!" kind of way.

"Pride" was different. They organized the first event around the concept of Independence day style activities. It was supposed to have the feel of an emancipation celebration and was originally intended to become a National day of observance of the five days of Riots at Stonewall, something that a lot of queer people decided to rally around as essentially the literal fight for independence of queer culture in the US. Shortly thereafter a lot of cultural aspects of Queer community done for fun that actually create a culture like Ballroom culture, Drag performance, dance, theater, caberet, burlesque, various bizzare kink related specialities were spotlighted. Pride took all that stuff that was happening in the shadows and turned it into a public festival. In part it was intended as a "fuck you we are not afraid and there is more of us than you think" but it also gave the public a look at the spectacle of open queer joy. That it was fun and weird meant it became a proper festival. It spread and other events that followed that format also became "Prides". Over time other communities and sub groups within the growing coalition came to define their own means to celebrate together and also came to call then things like "Trans Pride".

So at least in part the "Pride" portion is a historical naming convention for a very specific style of event and festival with a tracable history. It is helpful to understand that "Pride" has a secondary and silent implication of Pride Event "Woo Happy Pride! " is at some point like wishing someone Happy Christmas. "Proud" is in part an event theme that euphemizes that original "fuck you, our culture is valid and we won't be shamed out of the public eye."

Someone going on about "cis pride" is at some point basically just trying to carbon copy a format of protest made for a specific purpose while entirely misunderstanding the original usage. Some argue they don't really need a specific public culture festival or a protest because they are the dominant culture. They get their culture fest from national and religious tinted celebrations and they are accepted as a norm so the protest element is unnecessary. It more comes across more as someone who just doesn't like how queer people have claimed a slice of public space and want to have yet another party to celebrate themselves. It's like throwing an Independence day style celebration but when there is no commemorative event at it's core and no independence that needed to be fought for at all.

[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I guess there’s a huge distinction between pride as an emotion and Pride as an event at this point. Maybe that’s also why it’s seen with a very different meaning, I don’t think “””cis pride””” ever had an event, and if it did it was probably just a gathering of transphobes chanting slurs.

[–] Drivebyhaiku@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Straight prides... Have existed... and you are correct that the theme of straight prides were more about creating a narrative about how cis hegemony is unfairly under attack by the LGBTQIA making them in effect anti queer bigotry parades driven more by spite than anything. The organizers of such events have had traditionally firm links to the alt right.

The end effect of the Boston straight pride event was like an empty parody of a Pride event that just looks like an American Independance day celebration with a bunch of people wearing jeans and t-shirts waving American flags with a bunch of signs saying stuff like "Remember who gave birth to you" and a bunch of Trump related signage making it kind of vaguely indistinguishable from any other conservative rally.

The fact that when given a chance to organize a straight pride parade it just tends to take on the nationalist symbols of the country it is performed in kind of demonstrates that maybe there isn't a whole lot of point to the event celebrating straight culture as the participants can't really identify what is unique about being straight themselves because you are just supposed to assume it as a default...

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[–] anarchy79@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I know a debate has derailed when social splintering turns it into a semantic game of RISK.

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[–] Player2@sopuli.xyz 15 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Given the amount of people that seem to base their whole personality exclusively using this list, it will be a long while before we can move away from these as a collective.

[–] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

It's the most interesting thing about some people, that's why.

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[–] fosforus@sopuli.xyz 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Sometimes there's basis for patriotic pride. As a specific example, I live next to Russia, in a free country that respects LGBT rights. I know for a fact that those rights would be completely eroded if Russia conquered us. Therefore it makes sense to take some pride in my country and the armed forces of my country who are strongly discouraging that from happening.

[–] oce@jlai.lu 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So your pride is defending what you find is right, and your nation happens to be aligned with it currently. If your nation became homophobic, you wouldn't follow it, would you?

[–] fosforus@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If your nation became homophobic, you wouldn’t follow it, would you?

No, I would not. But I'm not sure if I could be able to translate that into any action that had effect.

[–] the_inebriati@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Sexuality

When people talk about "LGBT Pride", they're not talking about the "a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements" definition, they're talking about the "confidence and self-respect as expressed by members of a group, typically one that has been socially marginalized" definition.

It's almost like words can have more than one meaning.

[–] I_Has_A_Hat@startrek.website 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

LGBT Pride is not for those who celebrate it.

It's for all those who couldn't or can't.

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[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

I think of Pride as an acceptance of your sexuality, whatever it may be. The pride in question is a self esteem that comes from being comfortable in who you are.

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[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The last point could be argued, most people say/mean “proud of being their friend/brother/whatever”, and having mutual esteem with someone does take a degree of agency. It’s obviously moot if you have family ties with them but they hate you, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen people being proud of achievements of people who hate them.

The rest I agree, it feels weird unnecessary tribalism most of the time.

[–] felbane@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago

Fair, and I agree with you.

[–] oce@jlai.lu 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

A bit of stretch but this why I don't like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origin. It is supposed to guarantee quality, but why wouldn't someone be able to make the same quality of cheese given the same cows and quality process anywhere else? It seems to be some kind of weird territorialist pride.

[–] JustZ@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's a matter of economics and quality over time. These regions have chosen to tool up for making foods and commodities that are essential to the Euro Zone and arguably the world.

If they go out of business, the quality and availability of the product overall will certainly suffer. And it may not be so extreme as going out of business; if they miss out on a capital investment because some investor sees potential in a competitor making a product elsewhere, maybe it's death by a thousand cuts.

So we protect their brands. Yes, it is technically anti-competitive, for the greater good. And at the very least, for the good of the Euro Zone.

[–] oce@jlai.lu 1 points 1 year ago

If it wasn't for the unfair advantage of the PDO, maybe other regions would be tempted to tool up too, which could encourage quality and/or optimizations that would reduce the price, that could benefit the people too.
It doesn't seem fair for the people who weren't born in one of those privileged regions which were given many PDOs. It reminds me of feudal birth rights in some way.
I'm not sure, it is for the greater good of everyone eventually.
Also, some PDOs are captured by industrial groups who keep buying the little producers who made the PDO, and it protects them from competitors. This articles translated from French describes the situation in France: https://www-lafranceagricole-fr.translate.goog/a-la-une/article/759488/contrls-par-les-gants?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

why wouldn’t someone be able to make the same quality of cheese given the same cows and quality process anywhere else?

They would, but the opposite wouldn’t be possible because of regulations. I feel like it’s more of a “this product has been made in a place which enforces good practices, so you can be sure it’s healthy (to a degree)”. It’s kind of like originals and bootlegs, bootlegs could be as good as good originals, but originals will never be as bad as bad bootlegs.

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[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

In the abstract, yes, but when a group of people is oppressed because of one of those identifiers, it stops just being a born trait. It also identifies that you're oppressed. Celebrating who you are with regards to that kind of trait (sexuality, sex, race, etc) isn't a celebration of being born a certain way. It's a celebration of self acceptance, and an act of rebellion.

You aren't proud of what you were born with, you're proud of what you were born with, because some people have tried to punish you for that what.

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