this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023
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No Stupid Questions

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This relates to the BBC article [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66596790] which states "the UK should pay $24tn (£18.8tn) for its slavery involvement in 14 countries".

The UK abolished slavery in 1833. That's 190 years ago. So nobody alive today has a slave, and nobody alive today was a slave.

Dividing £18tn by the number of UK taxpayers (31.6m) gives £569 each. Why do I, who have never owned a slave, have to give £569 to someone who similarly is not a slave?

When I've paid my £569 is that the end of the matter forever or will it just open the floodgates of other similar claims?

Isn't this just a country that isn't doing too well, looking at the UK doing reasonably well (cost of living crisis excluded of course), and saying "oh there's this historical thing that affects nobody alive today but you still have to give us trillions of Sterling"?

Shouldn't payment of reparations be limited to those who still benefit from the slave trade today, and paid to those who still suffer from it?

(Please don't flame me. This is NSQ. I genuinely don't know why this is something I should have to pay. I agree slavery is terrible and condemn it in all its forms, and we were right to abolish it.)

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[–] ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip 18 points 1 year ago (19 children)

Let's say that 5 generations ago, your great-great-great grandfather had a farm. It was highly productive and had a great location.

Let's say that my great-great-great grandfather went to the local government and paid bribes and maybe did some light killing and stole that farm. No matter who your g-g-g grandfather talked to, they all pointed to the new deed and told him to suck eggs. Your g-g-g grandfather fell into despair and poverty. His children grew up poor but also worked hard and climbed up the wealth ladder a little. So too did their children, and so on, until your generation. Let's say you're lower middle class or so. No generational wealth to speak of but not in poverty.

Meanwhile my family has developed that farmland, partitioned it and sold or leased pieces of it for business and industry. We have phenomenal generational wealth all built on that initial theft of land.

But hey, you never had land stolen directly from you, and I never directly stole the land. Everyone in the area knows exactly what happened. Everyone in the area knows that my generational wealth is built on theft. Nowadays everyone talks openly about it, including me.

Now, from the outside looking in, I say that the absolutely morally right thing to do is restore the ownership of the land to the descendants of the person who owned it. But from the inside, the living descendants of the thief say hey, WE didn't steal the land. We just benefit every day from the original theft. Why should we do anything to make amends for that theft, which we don't dispute but don't want to be accountable for either.

[–] brcl@artemis.camp 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So, American here. My family immigrated from Germany, Poland, England, and Italy (the nationalities of my four grandparents). My family never owned slaves, never owned farmland, never profited from any of that. Why should my tax dollars go towards paying reparations for something my family had no part in?

That’s the part that I struggle with. Should the families who directly profited off of slavery pay reparations? Perhaps. Should the families and individuals who had nothing to do with slavery? Absolutely not.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why should my tax dollars go towards paying reparations for something my family had no part in?

Nobody is suggesting that your taxes should increase to exactly match the amount you'd have to personally pay. It's the responsibility of the government to do it, and while the government does ultimately use your tax dollars it's not like you'll personally feel the effect.

[–] Ninjasftw@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Except you would feel the effects. The government would end up with less money for services so worse roads, hospitals, schools etc and probably higher taxes

[–] vashti@feddit.uk 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Good news - your government will spend as little as it can possibly get away with on those things whether you pay slavery reparations or not!

This always seems such a strange argument to me, as if governments are just screaming to spend money on roads, hospitals etc. They spend it on pet projects and tax cuts for their voterbase.

[–] brcl@artemis.camp 1 points 1 year ago

Well, if we’re talking about ideal spending of tax dollars, this isn’t acceptable either. Any way we split it, the government will not spend our money the way we see fit, so it’s still a valid argument to me.

[–] Ninjasftw@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Of course they are, roads, hospitals, railways etc are vote buying. Doesn't mean they are doing it out of a sense of civic duty because they are generally scum. But if you think that 14 trillion in reparations (450k per tax payer!) Isn't going to have a massive impact on future spending then I have a bridge for sale!

[–] vashti@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It depends on the period of time they're paid over, doesn't it? Generational debts like these are repaid over, well, generations. It's not going to be something we notice, and the UK aren't the only country involved.

Plus, if that's what you think, I don't think you can have seen the state of the UK's roads, hospitals and railways.

[–] Ninjasftw@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I use them daily so imagine how much worse they would be with generational debt.
It would be used as an excuse to privatise every thing left :( I really can't understand how it wouldn't affect the average person. You can't just hand wave away the impact of a very large amount increased debt. Ironically the people that would have had the least amount 'benefit' from the slave trade would be the ones that feel the most impact from any reparations. Social programs would be the first ones hit

[–] vashti@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I promise you, we had massive generational debt all the time I was growing up in the seventies, eighties and nineties, and when my mother was growing up in the 50s and 60s. We had way better public services then than we have today. Whether or not the government is making debt repayments has no bearing on public services—that's all about the attitude of the government, and a government that wants to privatise everything and destroy the public trust will always find some pretext to do so, such as the triple lock being the biggest votewinner in the land.

[–] AK77@feddit.uk -1 points 1 year ago

The hospitals, schools, libraries, roads and services were built with the aid of the disputed money in the first place.

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