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How come LED Light Bulbs only last for about 2-3 Years?

I've bought and replaced a lot of light bulbs, and I noticed that all of them said "up to 20,000 hours" which would be about 5 years given 12 hours of daily use (which we definitely don't).

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[-] FeelzGoodMan420@eviltoast.org 27 points 3 days ago

Since people are just giving snarky douchebag replies, I'll actually attempt to answer the question since that's what this community is for?

The estimate given on the packages of these bulbs are absolute best case scenario, using an optimal temperature range and pattern of use that won't really match up with the average household because:

  1. You may go on vacation and let your house get cold or hot. This could affect the life of thr bulb

  2. The manufacturer is likely leaving the bulbs on 24/7 when measuring. Most people turn lights on and off multiple times throughout the day. This can decrease the life of thr bulb, just like with any other electronic device.

  3. Humidity in the house can change dramatically year round. Manufacturing tests probably keep a constant humidity level.

  4. If you're buying cheap random LED bulbs off Amazon from dogshit brands (i do thid too so not knocking you), the manufacturer estimates might just straight up be a lie.

I'm sure there are other reasons but that's a good start.

[-] trolololol@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

LEDs can take quite a beating. The only thing that degrades then is being on, and being hot. For all purposes unless it's inside a restaurant kitchen or they're on, they're not hot.

Other packaged electronic components follow the same rules. Except wires and solder that can oxidize without being used.

So no, I think that's a grift if you can't reach 5 years. When domestic LED lighting was in infancy we'd hear all power LEDs, like for cars, should last 10 years.

[-] FeelzGoodMan420@eviltoast.org 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It wouldn't degrade from being shut off and on a bunch of times? I know like HDDs can degrade faster if they're constantly powered off and on.

Appreciate the feedback. I just tried to answer the question the best I could since at the time most of the replies were unhelpful and rude

[-] trolololol@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Mechanical things suffer a lot of stress from turning on/off. But even spinning disk storage turns off automatically if desktop is idle for a certain time, it's a balance between switch vs continuous operation, they have overlapping kinds of wear and tear.

Top of mind, you can expect 10k cycles from typical buttons and it's hard to be less complex than a button. Because metal parts are subject to fatigue.

Flash based drives would certainly fail faster or slower depending on the number of write bytes over its life.

Then there's erosion caused by electrons, which is my biggest suspect for the problems of last generation of Intel CPUs. You have to royally screw up to start selling something that overlooked this.

[-] FeelzGoodMan420@eviltoast.org 1 points 1 day ago

Yea I don't think I'll buy Intel again. My next CPU upgrade will likely be an AMD ryzen chip.

[-] trolololol@lemmy.world 1 points 15 hours ago

Wait until you hear AMD is treating OEMs now as bad as Intel did on their most glorious moments.

I'll try to buy as few computers as I can until Risc-v is main stream.

[-] BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 117 points 3 days ago

I have a dozen that run 12+ hours a day. I've had 1 fail in 5 years.

Don't buy cheap LEDs, and don't put them in enclosures that trap heat.

[-] rtxn@lemmy.world 43 points 3 days ago

Speaking from experience: LED drivers hate dirty power. If they burn out frequently, check the wiring for damage. I probably avoided a house fire.

[-] trolololol@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

As an EE graduate I want to hear more about what dirt means and what driver can be affected by it. I'd expect power electronics to stand 100% over voltage over short periods and easy 20% long term, which would blow up lots of other things on the house before the driver or the LED starts performing worse.

[-] Albbi@lemmy.ca 16 points 3 days ago

Dirty power? Aww geez it's been a few years since I last washed and waxed my power lines. Guess I gotta open up the walls again.

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[-] sparky1337@ttrpg.network 13 points 3 days ago

Yep. When I moved into my house the previous owner had used all garbage Walmart LED’s. I think I had one fail each month and just bought a bunch on sale from Phillips eventually.

Most common failure was the driver. So they turned into strobe lights lol. Most annoying failure ever.

And more importantly, not every LED is dimmer compatible. Sometimes they’re super picky or just plain don’t work.

[-] trolololol@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Oh dang, a cheap driver is probably $0.50 cheaper than a half decent one that can take the hit.

In Australia anything has 12 months warranty by law, this factory would bankrupt quick.

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[-] CmdrShepard@lemmy.one 71 points 3 days ago

Generally because you're buying cheaper ones that aren't built as well. Heat destroys LEDs and the cheap bulbs generally use fewer individual LEDs running at higher power to produce a given output in lumens. More expensive bulbs use more LEDs at lower power to achieve the same light output so that they're not constantly being overdriven and last much longer.

[-] counselwolf@lemmy.world 13 points 3 days ago
[-] acosmichippo@lemmy.world 31 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I have dozens of Philips Hue bulbs 6-10 years old and I honestly don't think one of them has died. I'm sure they have lost some luminance over time, but they still get the job done no problem. I rarely run them at 100% anyway.

But yeah I have also had some cheaper LED bulbs die within a few years.

[-] hperrin@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I bought three of the gen 1 Philips Hue when they first came out and all three died within two years. I hope they’re better now, but I’ll never buy Philips Hue again.

And in case you ask, they weren’t enclosed, they were in IKEA floor lamps. They were at 100% all the time, but I feel like if they can’t survive that, they shouldn’t be able to do it.

[-] quixotic120@lemmy.world 29 points 3 days ago

Just fyi for anyone who would care about this: while hue bulbs are built well they are moving towards a model that requires you to put them on “the cloud”, even though they were sold for years and years without that requirement. The update will be mandatory whether you want it or not as part of Philips security being integrated into the app. It’s unclear what will happen if you don’t create an account and sign in at that point

So if you’re like me and put all your iot shit on an isolated vlan without internet access they may not be the best option for you. Or if you just don’t want to support a company that wildly changes the tos years after purchasing their (expensive) product. I don’t want my home shit on the internet, I don’t trust Philips to put enough cash or effort into securing their servers, etc.

The bulbs do work with zigbee though and that seems to be a viable alternative to using their hub/app although I haven’t tested it fully. This also means if you’re using them via HomeKit you’ll need some kind of bridge like home assistant

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[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago

They never last that long, as they easily get away with it.

In one of the gulf states, though (Dubai?), they actually have only longer lasting LED lights for sale, as the minister responsible for regulation is something like an EE and forced the LED bulb providers to make a special version of those bulbs that basically last for ever. Those are only sold in that country, and hard to come by elsewhere.

[-] hperrin@lemmy.world 20 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Smart bulbs like this:

Have PCBs with small LEDs surface mounted to them. This means that the on-off cycle of the bulb causes heat deformation cycles of the PCB. This stresses the foils in the PCB and can eventually cause them to lose connection. That’s one of the reasons why they’ll often start flickering or lose the ability to be cool white, warm white, or specific colors (the different kinds of LEDs in them).

But bulbs like this (often called smart edison bulbs):

Use longer/larger LEDs that aren’t mounted to the PCBs, and will probably last much longer. They are better at not overheating their own electronics.

If you want the first kind to last longer, don’t run them above ~60% brightness.

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[-] Raiderkev@lemmy.world 25 points 3 days ago

I replaced my mom's can lights with LEDs and I was an early adopter. I believe it was ~2012-15 ish. Not a single one has died. The only reason any of them fail now is poor quality and / or planned obsolescence. The tech itself is solid AF. I had some bulbs I got from IKEA for $1. Those have failed countless times.

[-] millifoo@lemmings.world 45 points 3 days ago

Heat.

While the actual LEDs (*) may be rated up to 20,000 hours+ in optimum circumstances, but the actual 3rd party bulb manufacturers, especially the cheapo brands, are building bulbs with poor heat dissipation designs and cheap and/or poorly designed circuits. Same goes for other parts they may use, such as the power supply. To reach 20,000+ hours, you need everything - not just the LED - to be working optimally together.

(*) the best LED makers out there right now, e.g. Nichia, Cree, Phillips - really do some amazing engineering.

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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 14 points 3 days ago

Maybe stop buying the seizure-brand ones from Amazon?

I think I've had to replace one bulb in my entire house in the last 6 years or so.

The same reason that western countries refused to buy the extremely hard to break Superfest glasses manufactured in the GDR (East Germany) during the Cold War: planned obsolescence and consumable goods mentality in the interest of profit (they got a west German salesman to take the glasses to a trade show, and nobody gave a shit, because part of the industry’s profit model at the time was the sale of new glass due to breakage.

In point of fact: better, longer lasting LED bulbs DO exist, but they’re only sold in Dubai (due to the monarchy there basically decreeing that they wanted that to happen, so Phillips made them for them, but will NOT sell them outside of the country, because it would kill their sales elsewhere).

[-] orcrist@lemm.ee 8 points 3 days ago

Stop buying the cheap ones. :-)

[-] nimpnin@sopuli.xyz 14 points 3 days ago

They don’t? What are you talking about?

[-] k_rol@lemmy.ca 4 points 3 days ago

Is Lemmy worse than Reddit to answer no stupid questions?

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[-] tfw_no_toiletpaper@lemmy.world 16 points 3 days ago

Mine work for I think over 10 years now. Some of the actual LEDs inside died but you don't really notice 1-2 of 200 inside the bulb being dark.

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 7 points 3 days ago

I have been dumpster-diving for LED bulbs for 5 years. None of them had 200 chips, they usually have about 5-30 packages with 1-6 diodes each for a total of around 30-60 so that they total some 90-180 V in series (I live in a 230V mains region, and the 330V rectified mains can be efficiently transformed to that voltage by an SMPS). Because they are in series, if one in the series chain fails open circuit (the most common way), the entire chain goes out. Yes, fixtures (not bulbs) with 100+ LED chips exist and if they are designed to operate at a low voltage with all chips in parallel, the failure of one will not affect the others.

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[-] winterayars@sh.itjust.works 29 points 3 days ago

They've been sabotaged by design. LEDs should last 10+ years if built even half away reasonably, but unfortunately the manufacturers basically got together and agreed to build them in such a way they would fail. Same as regular light bulbs, they just have to work harder.

I still have some of the earliest modern LED bulbs on the market--old Philips ones, the AmbientLED (i think) with the yellow casing and large heat sinks. They've been running for like 15 years now and not a one of them has failed. I spent several hundred USD replacing all my bulbs with those back in the day and they've done me well.

Modern bulbs are trash by comparison. Not because the technology is limited in some way but because they refuse to make anything to that quality anymore.

We need an alternate solution to this planned obsolescence bullshit. Light bulbs hit 50k rated hours long ago and they were talking about making ones that went 100k+ but these days you can't find anything above 25k. And that's setting aside the fact that a lot of these rely on apps that could be dropped at a moment's notice.

[-] nothingcorporate@lemmy.today 12 points 3 days ago

Wait til people hear that GE, Phillips, and others literally created a cartel to sabotage light bulb lifespan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

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[-] kitnaht@lemmy.world 21 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Get the ones with the strip LEDs that look like they're trying to emulate a glowing tungsten filament. I can't remember where I got the information; it was like the Technology Connections YouTube channel or something, but I remember them saying that since they put the LED lights in series on those bulbs, they have a much higher voltage requirement to drive them, and much less circuitry is needed. It's the circuitry that burns out, and many of these filament-style LED lights literally only have a resistor as their main component.

I've swapped to these kinds of LEDs like...5 years ago, and haven't had one burn out yet. Probably have like...15 of them across the entire house.

https://youtu.be/fsIFxyOLJXM?si=4wz0wa355Wd9gkUP&t=1389 -- YEP -- Found the advice. Starts at 23:09 BigCliveDotCom also says the same in his episode about Dubai Lamps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4

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[-] Kerb@discuss.tchncs.de 19 points 3 days ago

i have 7 bulbs since 2019
none of them failed so far.

all the lifespans i found ranged between 15.000 to 25.000 hours ( which btw was equated to 1.000 hours per year instead of 5.000 per year)

so this doesn't sound normal to me.

how manny(in use) bulbs do you have?
what brands do you use?

[-] Mr_Blott@feddit.uk 11 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Only buy Philips (not the Hue stuff) or Osram

The rest are shite

[-] Fuzzy_Red_Panda@lemm.ee 7 points 3 days ago

+1 for philips.

The problem is most of what the big box hardware stores in the US are selling are junk brands. And they won't even offer basics like a philips 75-watt-equivalent soft-white led in their stores.

The junk brand bulbs will fail in my kitchen light fixture after a year (they start flickering). The philips bulbs have never failed for me.

A properly designed and produced led bulb should last like 20 years.

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[-] Kaliax@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago

Planned obsolescence

[-] plz1@lemmy.world 12 points 3 days ago

I've had sets of LED under-cabinet lights powered on 24/7 for about 14 years. I think one bulb went bad, out of 12.

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[-] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 18 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Typically it's not the emitters -- the LED's themselves -- that fail. If driven correctly, those have lifetimes of tens of thousands of hours. That's what the manufacturer is advertising on the box. Yes, an individual LED when driven correctly will probably last 20,000 hours. (Usually more, depending on how pedantic you want to get. The 20,000 hour figure often quoted is the point where the emitter drops to 80% of its original light output.)

LED "bulbs," the type that replace filament bulbs in consumer fixtures, typically fail in their driver hardware. LED's run off of low voltage DC and in the base of all of those LED conversion bulbs is a power conversion assembly that steps down and rectifies 120v/240c AC to whatever DC voltage the LED array in there expects. These are inevitably made out of whatever the cheapest passives and semiconductor components the manufacturer thinks they can get away with. These don't last 20,000 hours, especially not in where they're usually installed.

The main killer for all semiconductor electronics, which includes both LED's themselves and their driver circuitry, is heat. This is often exacerbated by the fact that LED replacement modules are usually stuck in enclosed light fixtures designed for filament bulbs that have insufficient ventilation to get rid of the waste heat from the components in an LED module. The insides of those enclosed ceiling light fixtures, the ubiquitous "boob light," gets hot, even with only LED modules installed. Filament bulbs don't care because they don't have any electronics in them and how they work is literally by getting so hot the glow. But LED modules in that kind of environment will invariably suffer an early failure.

The best way you can get your LED modules to last longer is to install them in a fixture where they'll have a lot of air circulation available or at the very least which is not fully enclosed.

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[-] ShunkW@lemmy.world 11 points 3 days ago

I have had the same light bulbs since 2012. One of them broke when I dropped it while moving. Otherwise, no issues at all. Philips brand that I bought a box of 12 of when I moved into an apartment that year. Maybe I'm just lucky, but still no issues.

[-] TheRealKuni@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago
[-] counselwolf@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

are there cool/non-warm colored filament led bulbs? My SO prefers the cool colored bulbs.

[-] TheRealKuni@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

I’d be shocked if there aren’t.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

My smart LED bulbs don't even say how long they last, but my experience with LEDs in general tells me they will last practically forever. Out of all the LED things I have, the only ones with any burnt out lights are a couple of cheap LED strips I have and I can't even be sure the ones that are dead weren't because of where I cut the strip. I've had those things for over 12 years now and they're in my PC which is always on.

Afaik, the biggest threat to killing the LED is heat, and some cheaper LED bulbs have really poor heat dissipation. Technology Connections has a video about them, which may be more informative.

[-] I_Clean_Here@lemmy.world 7 points 3 days ago

Can't actually remember when or if I had a LED bulb die on me yet. Knock on wood ...

[-] A32topsL@lemmy.world 10 points 3 days ago

What would you recommend?

Philips.

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this post was submitted on 23 Sep 2024
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